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Trying to keep clear patterning

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Raphael Badawi, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Hello,

    It's been a while since my last submission (I find the time I can along my two day jobs ;-) ).

    In the previous episode, I was going through the "quasi-randomness" problem of my compositions, as stated by Mike Verta in Unleashed 4 (here's the timed passage) :


    In january, I switched to work only on two-handed piano (previously, I worked only by click-and-point on the MIDI Editor...), and learned how to write structure down to paper. In february, I tried to milk this training into an effective orchestration. Here's the result (about 16 hours of work diluted in a month):


    I feel like some bridges are missing, and also that I should put brass and perc a bit more behind (I bought Template Balancing to solve this last issue). My question would be very simple: is it easy to follow? Does it get one lost?

    Thanks for your time :)

    Raphaël.
     
    Sylvain Provenzano likes this.
  2. It's easier to follow than your 'unleashed' piece.

    3 things I noticed :
    • The first melody is heard 4 times, 3 are identical and the fourth has a varation but the same conclusion. I would have start to do variations on the third pass and add a different conclusion somewhere.
    • I've never heard again this melody in your piece which would have given it more cohesion.
    • I've had the feeling of listening 2 pieces in one. Why don't you try to write a ABA structured piece ? (related to point 2)
     
    Raphael Badawi likes this.
  3. Hey ! Thanks a lot for the feedback, it actually helps :)

    I agree with the lack of variations in the first melody. I was a bit too shy, but at the third stance, it's not too early too vary things a bit.

    Regarding this first melody, it occurs (scarcely) two other times: at 2:10 with the trumpets and cello, and then at 3:40 with the violins. So I should ask myself: why is it not recognizable anymore in these two last occurrences? For instance, I put myself at the challenge to go progressively from theme B to theme A (from 1:30 to 2:10): maybe this bridge is too long.
     
  4. #4 Matthias Calis, Mar 10, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
    First of all, good on you for taking Mike's feedback on the chin, so to speak. You got some harsh, but honest feedback there and the fact you're here looking to improve yourself speaks to your commitment. Bravo for that! I think I was the one in chat at that time who made the comment it sounded, at certain parts, like "God rest ye merry gentlemen".

    At any rate, let's take a look at your new work!
    1. Structurally it's better than your unleashed piece. Certainly easier to follow. That said, I still find parts of it teetering close to randomness. There's a lot of stuff going on orchestrationally that is distracting from your main idea. The first 50 seconds I can follow easily. After that it gets increasingly harder and toward the end, I'm really not sure anymore where we came from. Where we end doesn't feel very connected to where we started.
    2. Bridging, as you identified, is a bit of an issue. Now this isn't easy, I too struggle with cohesively moving from one idea to the next.
      1. The transition from 0:50 to 0:52 is a bit jarring to my ears. I gave it a couple of listens to try to identify why this was the case, and it sounds to me that up until 0:50 you were building toward a louder dynamic, not a softer one. If I listen from 0:00 to 0:50, the whole thing seems to build, yet at 0:52 this cuts off and suddenly becomes quieter. It's not just the dynamics of course, but on an abstract level, I feel that that is the biggest issue there. It kind of feels like you're stopping in the middle of a phrase and suddenly start to almost whisper.
      2. The aforementioned bridge is also one of the most confusing parts to me because, as far as I can tell, you've got three, sometimes four things going on at once. I can hear celli, flutes (I am guessing it's flutes, they sound a bit strange and organ-like), harp, and either a cor anglais or an oboe. From what I can tell you want my ear to go toward the flutes and what they're doing. If that's the case then I'd suggest you take a hard look at all the other instruments, see if what they're doing is supporting the flutes or distracting from them.
    3. Out of all parts, I think your orchestration is where the piece suffers the most... but there is a strange contradiction there too. There some parts of orchestration that are really fun and quirky such as 2:56. You seem wholly untethered by any conventional ideas of which instruments go together well. This leads to some inventive doublings some of the time, but most of the orchestration choices however end up feeling confused. A lot of instruments are doing all kinds of crazy stuff that's not supporting the main idea and while they sometimes work as little counter melodies, too often they're just waltzing through everything else. It's almost like we're hearing two pieces at once! (3:40 is a particularly good example of this).
    4. Don't be afraid of rests. It's not a huge problem, but this piece doesn't really pause anywhere to take a breath.
    In conclusion:

    I don't think you should focus your attention on adding more melodies. If anything, I'd urge you to dial the sophistication knob way down. You're already 50% down from your unleashed piece, but you need to dial it down another 50% at least.

    Your idea from 0:00 to 0:50 is perfectly simple, but even that small section I feel you're already overcomplicating it with other rhythms. Simplify is the name of the game. I'd challenge you to present your very first idea (the one startin at 0:00) as a piano sketch, focusing on just these three things: melody, chords, bass and leave all the funky rhythms and counter movements out for now.

    I feel Mike's comment about having no shortage of ideas but needing to come down to earth are still applicable to this new composition. You're closer to earth, certainly, but we're still in orbit ;)

    I can absolutely see there's more structure. That's not the biggest issue right now. To me, the biggest issue is that you have too many ideas, and you're presenting too many ideas at once and it becomes unfocused as a result. This is why I think you should try to really get down to the the most barebone basics. Play this tune on the piano with just chords underneath and put that up, that's what I'd recommend to you at this stage.

    Hope this was helpful. You've already shown being able to take harsh criticism which is why I'm being so blunt. That said, I don't claim to be any better. At the end of the day I am jsut another guy with an opinion and you can do with my opnion as you see fit.

    EDIT:

    in the unleashed video, the part at 7:25:20 is really quite cool. I really liked that.
     
    Raphael Badawi likes this.
  5. Wow, that's a thorough answer! Thanks a lot :)

    I find useful to have a comparison with the Unleashed 4 endeavour, so I can see more clearly where I am right now.

    There are mainly three things I have to seriously consider among all the useful feedback you gave me:
    - even though I introduce less ideas at once, I have not cooled that down to one idea at a time yet, particularly on the arrangement side; I still have to give even more attention to that "space for introduction" problem
    - some orchestral colors lack clarity; I believe it's more on the lack of orchestral vocabulary side: I have to transcribe more pieces I like
    - there are some cuts in the middle of build-ups (as if I had jump from one point to one other): I have to be more careful with how I manage my structure, at least try to match the expectations it creates. For now, I don't really have awareness of these expectations, even when I play everything from start to end on the piano. It may be a "music fatigue" problem, when having already listened to the thematic material too much. I still have to think through this problem!

    Anyways, I would work passionately - as always - on those issues. These feedbacks help me to focus on what's more important!
     
  6. Music/listening fatigue is definitely a very real problem, I've found. Makes you believe you have to change up things far sooner than you actually have to because you have already heard it a million times. Simplifying will help you in two ways: it'll make the core idea clearer and it will allow you to write faster. Writing faster, I've found, leads me to have less of a listening fatigue problem.

    I think Mike mentioned this too in his Unleashed video where he wonders if your composition there was the result of writing slowly. Was this piece written slowly? If I had to guess, it does seem like it (because you mentioned it taking 16 hours spread over a month, right?). If that's what happened, then a piece of immediately applicable advice would be to force yourself to complete a little piece (even if it's just 30 seconds) in the shortest amount of time possible. Just a piano sketch. Really shouldn't take more than a day. This too will force you to write more simply.
     
    Raphael Badawi likes this.
  7. #7 Raphael Badawi, Mar 10, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    Actually, I played the entire piece on the piano before beginning to orchestrate it! I believe that explains why it's more on the arrangement side that the stuff is overwhelming.

    So imagine, a piece written at the end of january, ended at the end of february in four four-hours sessions. The fatigue seems to have occurred during the orchestration (directly into Reaper) process. So what to do? Am I capable of writing orchestration directly on paper as Mike Verta (but also Alain Mayrand in his Orchestrating the line course) do? If so, I have to overcome the feeling it may be too difficult to me right now. And even if that's the case, even if it's too hard for me for now, maybe training my internal hear would help. So, this whole point hints to lack of transcription to internalize vocabulary.

    I should have more time starting from may for music: maybe it is reasonable then to accomodate one morning per week for transcription, and in the mean time, try to do piano, and then paper orchestration, and only after that DAW. I'm willing to try.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention the whole idea of arranging on paper is related to the "not being too slow" situation so I can limit the effects of music fatigue.
     
  8. Hi there,

    Instead of flooding with a new topic, I believe it's better to keep in touch in this topic :)

    So, I tried to arrange a friend's melody, trying to make it simple, and to clarify the whole intention, particularly on the arrangement side. So I came up with this:



    Am I on better tracks now or am I still stuck at the same point?

    Thanks for your feedback,
    Raphaël.
     

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