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Star Sword

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Louis Calabrese, Sep 20, 2017.

Page 1 of 8
  1. #1 Louis Calabrese, Sep 20, 2017
    Hello everyone, I hope you are well. I hear plenty of amazing music from those on this forum, it's truly a pleasure to listen to! I wanted to get your thoughts on an action cue of mine - I tried to take inspiration from TSFH and adhere to what my music teachers and Verta teach. Hope you enjoy it!

     
    Gharun Lacy likes this.
  2. #2 Doug Gibson, Sep 21, 2017
    Cool man....... already at a pretty good level of craft. Not sure what your goals are, but I would just give you the green light to shop and send out your music to get work and bring in projects.

    I don't have any comments on the composition, as it's a genre I don't personally care for . (I feel this way about TSFH too)
    But that is just my personal bias. It is a very popular style, and really encourage you to write what you enjoy and I hope you land a lot of great projects.
     
  3. #3 Louis Calabrese, Sep 21, 2017
    Doug

    Thank you feel taking the time to listen. My goal here was to write "good action" with some variation and change to keep it interesting, like TSFH does. I like and want to write a lot of things though, classical, romantic, horror, action / adventure more like Goldsmith and Williams. In fact I have a composition teacher that helps me score clips and it's loads of fun and educational. I'll post a few on here for feedback as well.

    I haven't posted items on the librairies because I was waiting until it was 'good enough' or at least 'doesn't 'suck'. I'm also not sure if I have a connection to the music I write because I give that up with the libraries.
     
  4. #4 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 21, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    Hi Louis..:)

    Cool Track. Let me give you a brief overview, what I think you should a bit keep in mind:

    I like the track. Very intense. But...oh mannnn. slow the fuck down..:D I am 1 : 30 min in your track and my brain is literally exploding. Why so many Piatti? I mean..I love the cymbal percussions but this is a way toooo much, I tell you. and not to come again with my J. Williams philosophy, but be a little bit more careful with those piatti. They are very strong and used to "highlight" something "very important". So..by using so much..they loose totally their "impact". Less is more my friend. Get rid of this thing that you have to smash all the time the piatti to make it important..No..that is not important. And that applies also to all that TIMPANI Banging..man..action is not throwing everything into the pot..no it is not!

    Second..the first 30 seconds there you have a really cool motif, but you overdo in my opinion with the orchestration. You slam in so many things..string shorts slamming frenetic lines while a melody is going busy as well..TAKE YOUR TIME! :D I know you want to go ACTION and I know thats cool, I love it..BUT..man..diversity..contrasts..things have much more impact when you work with contrasts..How you can do that. Contrasts can be achieved through many methods. I tell you 2: Dynamics and Orchestration.

    Loud Dynamics vs Quite Dynamics
    Dense Orchestration vs Thinner more clear and pristine orchestrations.

    An example for your orchestration: It is hard to have Pounding very dense string chords in shorts slamming all the time PLUS a melody on strings over it. You step into many problem with channelizing the different colors and clearness. Imo that doesnt work that good.

    I have hard times...here.. to follow your vision not because your theme is not good..I like it..but the way you slam it out..is soo much over the top, I don´t know how to say it..RELAX..Take your tiime..

    In my opinion and I may sound like Mike but imo opinion you are not there yet. Take your theme, make a minute of music and make it more "clear". This is not clear where your voice leading is, where you are going, where you drama is..it is just tooo much und unfortunately uncontrolled chaos here.

    Two steps from Hell is something very different, my friend. It is about structure and clear orchestrations. please post me the track or an example where you want to be or what you think is your goal in terms of 2 steps from hell. I want to help, but I need to know more things.
     
    Allan Brown likes this.
  5. #5 Louis Calabrese, Sep 21, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    Alex

    Thank you for taking the time to listen to my piece and providing some serious in-depth feedback. This piece was directly inspired by TSFH High Cs where they pretty much doing the high strings thing over the melody and keep up the intensity for 6 minutes (lots of other stuff too). I would never bill my piece at that level but that's what I was trying to do. They keep an amazing intensity through the whole piece and I've reviewed the orchestration of the TSFH piece as a guide to writing this one. It's on youtube, easy to find, really cool if you like their music.

    I'll save a copy and ligthen up on the cymbals, drums and string runs especially during the secondary melody part; however, the pounding strings along with the primary melody is key to this (it's 50% of that particular piece I'm emulating) so I'm curious as to how and if you think I can pull this off. Real instruments and awesome mixing could also be key.

    It's hard for me to change a piece once I've written it though as that's what my head hears but I'll try.
     
  6. #6 Louis Calabrese, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    I streamlined the percussion a bit and pulled the high strings back some in the mix, I'm curious if you feel the changes helped. Adding new slower/lighter sections or making this as a new piece will take me some time to do so I'll post when I create something. I appreciate the extra set of ears.. You make excellent music, I enjoy listening to it over at VI-C and here and your opinion carries heavy weight with me!
     
  7. #7 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 22, 2017
    Thank you Louis, but let me tell you,you are doing all fine and there is nothing to feel bad about. And I sense that you are eager to improve so I will help you. And believe me: I ONLY got better during the last 4 years because I listened to the right people who told me some serious stuff about my old music. One was Mike Verta who I had countless conversations with and he probably helped me the most so I try to give that to others what I learned. I will listen later today to your new file and will also take a listen to the 2SFH Track.
     
  8. #8 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    Ok, here we go:


    Listen please to the first 30 seconds and tell me the following: What and where is the main focus?

    So where is the melody, chords, Bass, Counterpoint. I ask you because I listened to it and the first 30 seconds are totally clear what that works with Thomas composition and I know why that is. But you need to know why that works and so I ask you.
     
    Phillip J. Faddoul likes this.
  9. #9 Phillip J. Faddoul, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    What a really cool piece of music!
    Also, they're using invisible woodwind and percussion sections.. I've actually heard of those, but honestly I thought they were just a myth..
     
    Allan Brown, Rohann van Rensburg and Paul T McGraw like this.
  10. #10 Louis Calabrese, Sep 22, 2017
    Philip

    TSFH are in a league of their own who make epic music that has substance, depth, character, and is just awesome. Check out their other stuff and you'll enjoy it and it'll be educational for writing purposes.

    Alex

    I'm a pretty big fan of them and I've listened to that piece many times. The winds transfer the melody to the horns and brass with strings flying behind in (in the same range, I confirmed with the score). The bridge sections are strings and winds running or going lower or higher and harmonically it's mostly just going up a half step / step every 5-10 bars. They do have lulish sections but the piece is twice the size of mine. I had thought that I accomplished some of this.

    What I failed at, and you immediately noted, is I went way over the top on the percussion. I've received feedback that I've been too light on that area (common for amatuer composers) and went too far in the other direction. Hopefully this makes a difference, it's much more open now.
     
  11. #11 Phillip J. Faddoul, Sep 22, 2017
    Hey Louis, I've been listening to TSFH's stuff since they first started back in 06 - 07. Yeah they've definitely got some really great stuff. Thomas is an awesome composer. He has a lot of really cool ideas. Usually all the ones I never think of!
     
  12. #12 Phillip J. Faddoul, Sep 22, 2017
    Guys, check this out. This guy's nuts! Also, it's a really cool way to gain a different perspective on the actual composition of the piece, without all the big orchestration magic!
     
  13. #13 Louis Calabrese, Sep 22, 2017
    Alex

    Now here is another dilemma I have. You made a point about talking to the 'right people about feedback'. I take skype lessons with a well established orchestrator, composer, and musician. 50 years of experience, and he's been involved in some of Hollywood's biggest projects. Nice guy, extremely intelligent, seemingly good teacher, and my stuff has improved (possibly?) under him. He's busted my chops about my work but this piece, as you first heard it, was given a total thumbs up by him. Excellent work ready for the libraries if I wanted. He said post it on places to get exposure and I did.

    I posted here actually hoping you or Mike would respond, and you did, and you gave a completely different opinion (in a word that you used, 'chaos'). That left me totally confused and frustrated cause I'm like "ok now what do I do, is my music good, or is it shit??" I don't want Yes men, I want the real deal. You make excellent music, follow the Jedi master here, and nothing you said doesn't have merit and I will follow along with you.

    I fear posting this because I want your opinion, hell, I need it, but I was curious to how you or others deal with that "musical growing up phase" and sorting through the kind of scenario I just presented.

    I really do hope this doesn't shun you or anyone, but this forum seems like a place for musicans to talk and express their opinions, feelings and music and I think this kinda of thing is part of that.
     
  14. #14 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    So your teacher told you that with your piece everything is fine? Or did I missunderstood that? Don´t get me wrong. I don´t shoot at you or your piece. You have a good grip and thing what you want, but you are still not there. And the piece has some issues. If I would be your teacher, I would tell you the details where you have to work on rather than letting you in the believe that everything is great. I don´t know your older works and I am sure your teacher did improve you. But listening to your piece I see things where you need to improve if you want to keep up with standards like 2 steps from hell. And even if you not, those things I mentioned are not special things suited to the style of 2SFH, no they are fundamentals.

    Guess why I told you my honest opinion, because we are here to learn and not fucking ViC where they powder everybodys butt. And by saying that I care for your craft and music otherwise I wouldn´t say something like that. That is indeed the missconception on the other forum that people get the impression that I am an evil person who wants them to feel bad. No..I want to help, that is why I did that. And I did that because I know that it is hard to find help. I got help myself and work my ass off to improve and so..

    Not to make story too long.

    My first advice before you head on: Repeat! By that I mean look at the 30 seconds of that High C track and do something very similiar. The first 30 seconds are clear, why? Because of structure, harmony and pattern establishment:

    You have a clear and easy understandable melodic statement in the first 10 seconds. How that is achieved? It is no magic. It is in particular very simple what happens here. Vloas / Vlns are carrier mainfocus for the rhythmic figure. They carry the harmony and add pulse and forward motion. The melody is clearly simple and out of the range of strings. This is important. When you write a melody especially when trying to establish your very first statement better make sure that your statement is simplistic clear. The flutes work because they are in their "singing nice higher ranges where they have their silvery airy sound". it is a perfect range for those notes. Plus they are not interferred by the strings because VLoas/VLns play a way lower down there. That´s it. That is the mainfocus here. Nothing more and nothing less. You can do this little "quasi" counterpoint line on the VC & DB. It is not mandatory, but Thomas did that probably because his statement is pretty simple and the simpler and idea is the earlier you can implement more elements to it. VC/ DB are by the way again in their very own range down there a way below the Vloas/Vlns. So now the classic choice happens: Repeat! The thing is just repeated or stated twice but with slightly differences, like in the second run you notice that the winds are harmonized a little more (with another wind instrument) and the counterpointed finishing line is extended and builded up. While in the first run you had a short CB / DB sequence, now you have bones / F horns building up a simple repeating pattern fanfare which is going up..to prepare something bigger. So you see this whole thing is very much about clear orchestration and simple structure AND strong chord progressions. Please listen out those 30 seconds and transcribe it to 2 handed piano. Then go and repeat it but make a track a bit of your own version. My recommendation. Practise this intro here..it sounds simple and still..if you want to go big..better make sure to master these basics here. If you want to get better please listen to me and do that. I can assist a bit of course when you need help.
     
    Paul T McGraw and Phillip J. Faddoul like this.
  15. #15 Phillip J. Faddoul, Sep 22, 2017
    Louis, I think the way you're feeling is very normal and a natural part of the process. Although, I think it's important to remember, that while listening to the opinions and criticisms of those who you respect is important, It's also very important to be able to honestly and objectively judge and critique your own work.

    You could get Mike's and Alex's and mine and your teachers feedback, and you'll more often than not, get a whole spectrum of comments. Some will overlap and be consistent and some will differ, to varying degrees. I think that's where one's own honest and humble assessment needs to come in.

    We're all inspired by, and aspire to write music like our favorite composers, who in turn were inspired by their favorite composers . How do you think your work stands up to the music that inspires you? The things that make music great, in my opinion, are often simple and fundamental: strong statements, distinctive patterns, well-written melodies etc. If you had to take a step back and critique and comment on 'Star Sword' what would you say? How do you feel about it?
     
    Rohann van Rensburg and Louis Calabrese like this.
  16. #16 Alexander Schiborr, Sep 22, 2017
    Look Louis, it is not TJ. Bergerson Style, but here is an example of what I mean. I am still in my own studies, but let me take that example still:



    Piano draft - then orchestra.
     
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  17. #17 Gharun Lacy, Sep 22, 2017
    Hi Louis
    I'll give you a few things I noticed after the second listen. The feel is there but much like the TSFH piece, I can't hum the melody or the central harmonic progression one minute after hearing it. This particular piece seems to be stuck between two worlds. Not quite epic enough for strait trailer music but not quite thematically developed enough for traditional adventure cinematic music.

    The orchestration (or maybe the mix) feels thin. You've got your high strings flying everywhere creating the motion and your brass playing the melody line but you really don't have anyone making a definitive harmonic statement. In the TSFH piece, right around 30 sec, the low brass and strings are laying a very solid, (a bit muddy for my taste) harmonic progression the fills out the bottom and gives the piece weight. Your piece is missing that weight through out and with out it the high string acrobatics can get tiring as @Alexander Schiborr mentioned.

    It also feels a bit on the click. I could use some temp swing.

    Side note: Is it me or are the players in the TSFH the most unenthusiastic musicians, ever? They are to orchestral recordings what Zack Snyder's Superman is to superheros.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  18. #18 Louis Calabrese, Sep 22, 2017
    Alex you come across as a passionate individual who loves music, has talent, and is a no BS kind if person. A 'dick' would insult me, ignore me, or give a one word response which you certainly didn't do.

    I'm not sure if you gave it a second listen but I honestly feel at this point that won't change much as what you are really talking about is starting from scratch with the melody. I might need to start getting some kind of 'checkpoints' in my music to make sure I'm not headed down a bad road with so much wasted time. It will take me some time to either salvage something with that piece or write a new.

    On a side note your stuff is lovely and that little piece reminds me of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

    I'm mostly amazed by the VI usage, I feel like it's a battle for me with Sonar just to barely get this shit to have any dynamics (so many quirks and bad work flow options), maybe I should just spend the 600 and get Cubase as I hear so many love it.
     
  19. #19 Louis Calabrese, Sep 22, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    I guess with the musicians on the TSFH piece it's another day another dollar.

    Are you saying you can't lock on the the melody on the TSFH piece as well? The violas, cello, and bass are playing the harmonic component in my piece but maybe they aren't strong enough to hear. Yeah, the mix, another thing I fight with cause I have no idea how accurate and true my ear is or the 'room' I have to do this in.

    This style is beat like, there's no way I could play this style in so I'd have to add the tempo map after the fact.
     
  20. #20 Gharun Lacy, Sep 23, 2017
    Not at all. I can lock in on it but it's just not memorable and in my opinion they play with the melody in all the wrong ways and actually make it less memorable. But that is neither here nor there. We're talking about "Star Sword" here. Your melody is clearly defined (the descending line that first appears at 0:17). My biggest issue with the piece is the lack of developed harmonic content to accompany the melody and enhance it's presence. Even at the big finale @ 2:50 we get the same descending horn line with high string runs but nothing that really out lines and gives weight to the harmony.

    As for the criticism part, I'll say this. When you first put your work out there, the critiques will be all over the map. Some of them will even contradict each other. It just shows that you have a very wide range for improvement. As you keep working you will notice that the critiques start to converge and become more consistent. Once people are talking about issues that are a matter of taste instead of your writing, you know you've made considerable progress.

    And for a laugh. One day I'll post the stuff I did a few years ago. It's comical how bad it was (or still is); or how bad I was: or still am........I just gave myself a headache.

    Keep pushing!

    G
     
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