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Remember - from piano sketch to orch

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Jeff Hayat, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. #1 Jeff Hayat, Nov 13, 2017
    This is the first time ever, that I have gone from a piano sketch to a full orchestra. I have sketched out parts of melodies on piano before, but I have not done this. And sure, this is nothing but a simple melody over a basic chord prog., but it's simple and basic on purpose.

    Here's what I started with:



    The orch:



    And the score, for ref:

    https://www.jeffreyhayat.com/temp/RememberScore.pdf

    I didn't properly place any of the transposing instr., so everything is at pitch, and yes, I left out some dyn markings, hairpins, etc. :)

    There are a couple of diff directions I can go w/the orch, such as putting the violas (and clar) with the violins, and having the celli play what is now the viola line, but wanted to see how this works as it is now. One Q I have - bar 7 .... do the horns work there with the strings and woods continuing the melody, or is that a where's your focus moment?

    Thanks in advance. :)
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  2. #2 Doug Gibson, Nov 13, 2017
    Hi Jeff

    First off: bravo for notating out the score and trying out a new work flow for your compositions. It's not easy.
    It's like training a muscle. Keep on working at it and you'll get stronger and stronger.

    Personally I always segregate my work flow. Pencil paper sketch --- notation --- then record with musicians, or hire someone for the mock-up.
    But..... that's just what works best for me.

    I hear you. I won't make any comments on the "cosmetics" of the notation. I do hope it's ok, I will comment like you are going into a studio with a real orchestra.


    1. Duration: One of the things that is helping you, and also has you backed into a corner, is that the excerpt is very short.
    If you look at the three pages you can see everyone is always playing the entire time. Perhaps you have more that you did not upload ?
    This causes at least 2 problems. A). You have no where to go but down in energy from here. It's going to be harder to get longer compositions
    from this kind of approach. (not impossible) B) The piece does not have a beginning. Again, you might have that at home, but listening to this felt like I missed the first two minutes + of the piece.

    2. Breath: I would say the woodwind writing is the most problematic. Remember people have to breathe. Yes, really great players have tricks for this, but that has to be the exception. It's like people who just blindly say "fix it in the mix". Get it right and you don't have to rely on this.
    Also, you can't really hear the woodwinds in the opening anyway. It's not until you get higher up. And there in lies a secret about woodwinds:
    They add color, not weight. The notated score is deceptive in that visually it looks like the flute and violin 1 are the same. But you might have 14 people on violin 1, 12 people on violin 2, and then one each for flute 1&2. 26 vs. 2.

    I would either A) save them until 11 - which is when we first hear them. B) Have them do a different type of figure of their own.

    Also, if you are not familiar with the technique; do a google search for "dovetailing". You would want to use this.

    I'll see if I can circle back to this later today, and offer an example for the winds.

    Thanks for sharing your music
    Doug
     
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  3. #3 Mike Verta, Nov 14, 2017
    I would stay on the composition before orchestrating, which I will try to comment on later, but regarding your orchestration, you did not orchestrate what you played. Instead, you immediately began layering octaves and instruments. Always trust your instincts - the way you originally conceive of and play a piece - and let that guide your orchestration. Knowing nothing else, I'd say your original conception was for horn melody and low string chords, which would have avoided the over-orchestration Doug is talking about and given you room to go somewhere.

    But this is after the composition, which, while simple (actually, because it's simple) gives us a clear place to get things together first. But this is how to do it; this is the perfect way to learn.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  4. #4 Sylvain Provenzano, Nov 14, 2017
    Why specifically horn and low strings ? You say that because of what you think was intended or there is a more technical reason (except the range of course).
     
  5. #5 Mike Verta, Nov 14, 2017
    Just the stuff I talk about in the Orchestration classes - that the range and nature of the way we originally play/conceive our pieces often tells us much about the intended orchestration we have buried in our minds. He played the melody as a solo line right in the horn's meat range, and it was a very "horn-ish" line in its intent - ennobled and declamatory; and it was anchored over low chords/bass. Imagine if he'd conceived it with the melody right where it is, but underneath tinkly/high stuff - that, too, would say much about how it sounded in his mind's ear.
     
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  6. #6 Rohann van Rensburg, Nov 15, 2017
    I'm not sure I've ever found a platform for learning so much in such a short period of time. Thanks to anyone who has the courage to post, and for the experienced folks helping here -- even us spectators learn a great deal.
     
  7. #7 Jeff Hayat, Nov 17, 2017
    Thanks guys :)


    Doug #1 - It is short yes; I didn't do this with a beginning and an end in mind; this was really meant to be an exercise as opposed to a "completed piece of music". So, my post wasn't meant to be "hey - what do y'all think of my music here?" It's really more "how'd I so based on what the piano sketch was?" Sure the piano sketch could be longer, and have a beginning and an end, but it's really just about sketch > orch for right now. Hope that makes sense.

    Doug #2 - Of course you are right, people have to breathe. TBH, I really don't see problem here with breath. Or are you instead alluding to the players not having enough time to rest? Thanks for the tips re: the woods; I will have to keep that in mind. Still learning, ya know? :)

    Mike - re: not orchestrating what I played... even tho I read the rest of your post, of course, I am not sure I understand that. Actually, I had strings in mind for the melody while I was playing the piano. Sure, they could be horns, but that's not what I was hearing.

    Regarding the "orchestrating in octaves"... you are not wrong, or course, but this is the way I see it done so many times. TFTN as one ex. Why is the way I have this done this not preferable?

    Thanks again :)
     
  8. #8 Rohann van Rensburg, Nov 17, 2017
    Not speaking for Mike, but more as an exercise in making sure I'm grasping concepts:
    I think what he's referring to is that orchestration is a part of composition -- if one plays a line as a single melody, it's probably best to leave it that way, rather than throw in octaves. Not that octaves are inappropriate, but how one originally conceived the idea tends to be best in the initial statement of the idea (generally), as it gives one somewhere to go. If one is already doing octaves and layering beyond the original sketch, there isn't really anywhere else to go in terms of building the sound, and it tends to not serve the original idea well.

    Again, generally, rather than allowing "building" to provide continued interest, climax, etc, the heavily-orchestrated sound becomes the "standard" of the piece, meaning it tends to lack context, contrast or dynamics.
    Indeed this automatic "massive orchestra" sound from the get-go is done often, but it can, and often does, ironically undermine its intended effect. Think of the "epic orchestra" adding layers of unintentionally comical melodrama to a cooking show. Do this enough and all of a sudden the sound of an "epic orchestra" no longer sounds epic. I think of it sort of like overusing words -- if one says "awesome", or "wonderful", or "perfect" to refer to trivial things, one loses precision in the sense that there's no replacement for the "big" descriptions.
     
  9. #9 Doug Gibson, Nov 17, 2017
    I get it. One suggestion is to do a few different versions of this same excerpt. So ex.1 can be big tutti (which you did), ex.2 can be as an opening to a work, ex. 3 as an ending etc.

    If you take Mike's suggestion it will sound an opening to a composition, and you can build out from there.

    To be clear: I am not making any kind of aesthetic argument of what is Right/Wrong. My suggestion above is more akin to having you run through an obstacle course to train different muscles. A game I used to practice was; I'd imagine I was hired as an orchestrator for 3-4 of my favorite film composers, and then try and orchestrate in their style. For example if Thomas Newman sent me the excerpt above etc.

    Ahhh...... there is actually no time to breathe. Not if people read the score literally.

    Can you try an experiment for me ? Take the flutes in bars 1-6 and just cut or mute them. Post the example if you wish.
    Are you able to tell they are gone ? Personally, I don't even hear them. Once the piccolo enters, I kinda... can. But at 11 it becomes
    clear to hear them.

    I just looked at the viola part. That's not going to be playable. Are you a guitar player ? Kinda looks like guitar writing.
    They won't be able to bow it and have it connected.


    Just try it. Take his suggestion and do a mock-up of it. "the best strategy is the one that gives you the most options".

    I would say cut most of the rhythmic stuff in bars 1-6 in brass and winds. Bring them in at 7 and continue to build at 11 (hey 7-11 ! Slurpee time)

    Having a few examples is going to give you even more insights on how orchestration can integrate with composition.
     
  10. #10 Jeff Hayat, Nov 20, 2017
    Here's a short excerpt with and w/o the woods, first with.





    I def hear a diff. It's certainly not substantial, but it's there. Which is what I thought it should be; adding some color. Kinda like this:



    You don't really hear the oboes (1,2) definitively, but take them away, and something is missing; the melody doesn't have the same color, nor texture to it. Maybe this is a VI thing, as opposed to an orchestration thing? Sure, there are things that can be done here, like play w/the mod wheel, automate some eq, ride some faders, in an effort to get certain notes/instruments to stick out a bit more, but TBH, I really didn't put a whole lot of effort into mixing for this exercise. Not as much as I normally do, anyway.

    Really? If you are not expecting the players to play all of the notes connected (everyone knows that is not going to happen), why is there a need to create space for the players to breathe? Can't the players just.... take a breath when needed?

    You have no idea how much it pisses me off that I don't know this stuff. But in order to learn properly, I must ask: why can it not be played properly, or "connected"? F on the C-Str, C and F on the G-Str, Ab on the C-Str, and on. No?

    Finally, here's a new vers of the orig (1st half). Sure, that works too, but TBH, it's not what I had in mind when I played the mel on the piano :)



    Thanks for the time! :)
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  11. #11 Doug Gibson, Nov 20, 2017
    Personally I can't hear any difference. But if you can.... then I am never going to convince you otherwise. That's perfectly fine.

    I don't do mock-ups. I am only commenting as if you were going into a studio with a real orchestra.

    Let me answer your question with a question. Why would you put up a stop sign on a road if you don't expect anyone to stop ?

    You have explicitly stated with the legato marks you want them connected. Same with the durations. Yes, they can just figure out you had no idea what you really wanted and just do their thing, but I am suggesting that this is not the best "mind-set" to approach such an endeavor with.

    Two problems here;

    1. It takes up valuable studio time. When they have to stop and ask questions about what you want ........ $$$
    I think I saw at Vi-control a studio recording service for 50 GBP per minute for a 25 person group. Let's say you had 75 people on this recording
    and each question took 1 minute to answer. That's 150 GBP. People are not going to be happy about this.

    2. What if they need to breathe at the worst possible time ? Why do you want to take that chance ?
    Your phrasing is all wrong. That's not a cosmetic issue either. They now have to ignore what you wrote.
    It means they have to begin ignoring your making and rely on their own judgements. *

    When I listen to the mp3 it seems you want a breathe pattern like this:

    Screen Shot 2017-11-19 at 10.16.58 PM.png

    Those ' are to show where they would take a slight breathe. (DON'T USE THEM. That's just my trying to convey a message. It would be silly to use them.)

    * ( A friend of mine has become a pretty well known A-list Orchestrator. A certain A-list composer wrote the violas in treble clef for an entire score. This composer was also the conductor for the session. The principle viola said " what clef are the viola's supposed to be in?" The composer said "Oh, that's studio clef." The principle just said " Oh, ok. Thanks". The moral of the story is: There's no fucking thing called Studio clef. The principle violist used deft political sensitivity to realize the guy had no fucking clue, and by not embarrassing him he might get hired again.


    Lastly on the subject of violas


    There are essentially two large topics here, that I just have to be brief about.

    1. Perfect 5ths are a problem, except for the low ranges of cellos. They are hard to keep in tune. Also, the passage gets harder as you go along. Measure 4 is not happening as you wrote it. If you transposed up a maj. 2nd then you could use the two open strings and the logic you mentioned for the first measure.

    2. There is a debate on whether slurs mean legato or bowings. From about 1900 onward the legato marking as bowing indicator takes a dominant role. They'll never be able to do this in a single bow.

    I can't write out fully why this is. What you can do is get one of the well known books, or watch some of the many videos on bowing.

    Also, you can always hire a violin/cello/viola teacher for a 1 hour lesson on this stuff. You can learn so much simply by having someone play
    for you all this in front of you.
     
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  12. #12 Rohann van Rensburg, Nov 28, 2017
    "* ( A friend of mine has become a pretty well known A-list Orchestrator. A certain A-list composer wrote the violas in treble clef for an entire score. This composer was also the conductor for the session. The principle viola said " what clef are the viola's supposed to be in?" The composer said "Oh, that's studio clef." The principle just said " Oh, ok. Thanks". The moral of the story is: There's nothing called Studio clef. The principle violist used deft political sensitivity to realize the guy had no clue, and by not embarrassing him he might get hired again."

    Man, I really want to know what on earth I'm talking about if I work with an orchestra. While not essential to composing, I think basic knowledge of what things are called and what instruments are in what clef are the least one can learn to show respect to the instruments and musicians one is recording. Like Mike says, take a weekend with some flash cards -- studio clef? That's day 1 theory stuff.
     
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