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Can I do this?

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Jeff Hayat, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. #1 Jeff Hayat, Nov 4, 2018


    I guess my main concern is the rhythm. I still struggle at times (tho thankfully, not always :) ) with the rhythmic integrity of longer, more drawn-out melodies, as opposed to shorter and quicker ones.

    Piano will not be the final instr, but does this work?

    Thanks in advance.
     
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  2. #2 Aaron Venture, Nov 4, 2018
    's alright.

    I'd have basses come in on the second beat as opposed to the downbeat, as that will 100% confirm the rhythm for the listener.
     
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  3. #3 Jeff Hayat, Nov 4, 2018
    Thanks for listening. :)

    That's not necessarily the orchestration; I just put strings there for some context.

    Now that I re-listen, I am not too thrilled with that. Too minor. Redone:





    Again, rhythmically, does that work?
     
    Doug Gibson likes this.
  4. #4 Mike Verta, Nov 4, 2018
    Jeff Hayat and Doug Gibson like this.
  5. #5 Jeff Hayat, Nov 5, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
    Very helpful.

    Yeah - that seems to be b/c the D# feels like an accent, and it almost seems like that is the db, as opposed to the F#

    This seems to help a bit:



    But does the rhythm need to be more defined?

    What is that - 2 bars of three and 2 bars of four? Feels a bit awkward to me.... I do however get the gist of what you are doing there.
     
  6. #6 Bradley Boone, Nov 5, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
    Mike's audio is straight ahead 3/4 time throughout.

    Your first post is clearly in 4/4.
    Your second post is: 3/4+5/4+4/4+4/4 and this grouping repeats (yes, I know you could group it all as 4/4,but the accent of your performance makes the meter in Mike's words "stutter".). I think Mike heard your 2nd post and grouped it all in 3/4 to clear out the hiccups (listen to the accented beat 1 in his two bar trumpet intro).
    Your third post is back in 4/4.

    I think this has largely to do with how we perceive meter (regular stress/weak beats). There's dynamic (stress or strong attack), tonic (higher frequency), and agogic (longer duration) accents. In all three of your excerpts there's no underlying rhythm after the initial attack (the string pad is arrhythmic), so the audience has to place/imply beat 2 relative to the stress of the pickup notes into beat 3. In your 2nd excerpt, the pickup notes sounded stressed so it has an unintentional 3/4 feel. I don't know if this helps.

    You asked if the rhythm needs to be more defined. I'd say either the performance of the theme needs to fit the meter, which you do in 1st and 3rd excerpts, or better establish the meter in the accompaniment.
     
  7. #7 Jeff Hayat, Nov 5, 2018
    It all helps a lot, ty. :)

    Ok, so going with the latest version, I (with help from here, of course) think I see what the problem is. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    There is nothing that clearly defines the rhythm until the 3rd bar. Or maybe the very end of the 2nd bar. Either way, I am thinking, that with no other elements save for high strings that are arhythmic, I need to define the rhythm immediately, or almost immediately.







    Those have an immediately defined rhythm. While -





    - does not, but, in the actual score, there are other elements that define the rhythm.

    Do I have the right idea here?

    Must keep at it....

    Thank you for the help. :)
     
  8. #8 Mike Verta, Nov 5, 2018
    Your first excerpt (Star Trek) isn't being played correctly, so it feels a touch clumsy and off-putting. I mention this because I assume you didn't notice prior to posting, and this would indicate that you need to work on your internal sense of rhythm, and/or start playing with a click to develop it. In one of the Masterclasses I talk about people's perception of rhythm (not sure which one), and it is very similar to our visual persistence of motion - where events closer together become "grouped" together, and events slightly farther apart are perceived as part of separate groups. This interval is fractions of a second. Think of a flipbook animation - go too slowly and it just looks like individual pictures, but do it faster and it looks like an animation. There is a similar phenomenon at work as listeners' brains seek to organize the input into patterns or groups.
     
  9. #9 Bradley Boone, Nov 6, 2018
    Yes. See also Mike's post regarding the performance (especially the triplet rhythm in the Star Trek theme).
    Here's where I disagree, the Star Wars theme also has a defined rhythm.

    @Jeff Hayat , I think you're conflating two ideas, rhythm and meter. Meter is like that backbone that sets the framework for rhythm. It tells the listener (and performer) what beats we expect are strong and weak... or stressed and unstressed. The shorthand we use is the time signature. You could, and composers do, mess with themes over different time signatures as a way to generate interest while tying a piece together (thematically) within a larger work. Mike took your 4/4 theme in this thread and showed it can go in 3/4 in his first post. Famously, Mozart took the theme to "Twinkle-Twinkle" and set it in 3/4 for his 12th variation for piano.


    The US National anthem is in 3/4, but Whitney Houston's SuperBowl performance is in 4/4. Both have rhythm, but both are in different meters. She altered the rhythm of the melody to fit the new meter, but it is still recognizably the anthem (harmony, melodic emphasis aligns with the stress of the lyrics, etc.).
    ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
    Back to your original question: can I do this? As long as you are establishing a rhythm that fits with some grouping of beats (into a meter), then yes you can do it. If your intent is to obscure the meter, then that's fine too, but it helps to have an established meter before you hide it. Lastly, if you do have odd metric groupings, then it helps to repeat the pattern so the audience can get a grasp on the metric expectations.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  10. #10 Doug Gibson, Nov 6, 2018
    Hey Jeff

    There is already lots of solid advice here. Is there a reference track, or something you can post to show what you are going for ?
    The big picture aim is un-clear, and I would sincerely like to offer any advice that might help.

    It would be great to hear you post a piece or two. I recall you have posted some bits in the past, but they were very short. (At least the ones I listened to)

    I can offer some general points regarding melody that have not been mentioned yet if you wish, but if you post a work-in-progress
    more specific advice can be given.

    Wishing you the best
     
    Bradley Boone likes this.
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