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Template Balance

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. #1 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 11, 2018
    Hi.

    I've finished from watching Mike Verta's masterclass on Template Balance. He opened my mind to great things that passed me. I'm currently working on my template and gave it a fine name, "Hollywood Symphony Orchestra".

    I find it that using a volume meter plugin helps a lot when I try to level everything correctly. I choose a fair peak, say -3db, and then make sure that all the articulations in a single instrument reaches the same peak. For example, when I was balancing the Oboe patch from Orchestral Tools Berlin Woodwinds, I loaded all the essential articulations needed in their default volume. I start with the sustain patch, play the highest note that the Oboe can handle and make sure it reaches -3db at most. Then, I go with the rest of the articulations and do the same thing. I've noticed that an Oboe in sustain can play G7 as it's highest note, whereas a staccato patch can only play F#7. Is that normal?

    Anyways, the only problem I see now is that when all the articulations in their highest note reach -3db, when you try and play core notes of the Oboe, I start to see a volume variation again like if I didn't balance them already. So, an Fmaj triad using the staccato patch won't sound the same in terms of volume level as the Fmaj triad played on a sustain patch. Is there a reason behind this or is it just a recording mistake made by the company? The Flutes does sound nice even when not played in their highest notes, I can still see the volume remains consistent unlike the Oboes which made me think it could be a recording issue. Now in the Oboe case, the shorts who are supposed to be less in volume than the longs are now higher in volume when playing normal chords. In a real situation, this shouldn't be happening. It's not realistic. But I don't know what else I can do to them. When I go back and play the highest note in every patch, the volume remains consistent just like the way I made it. But when starting to play around with the core notes of the Oboe, volume variation occurs.

    What do you think?

    Note: A soft clip was applied at the master channel during the balancing. The reverb settings were already there when I was trying to balance, so there are some high cut EQs to emulate the section distance and air absorption, some small reverbs to glue everything together and control the distance separation and a master reverb (tail) at the master channel as well as some delays and stereo image enhancers.
     
  2. #2 Bradley Boone, Nov 12, 2018
    Don't do this with all instruments and articulations.
    I'm assuming you're balancing either in Kontakt/Sample player or your DAW's mixer and summing the channels. Yes, you need to balance the articulations because the producers have a spotty record of doing this accurately. Like you've observed in Mike's class, there's no way a violin section pizz sounds as loud as sustain. Or staccato versus sustain oboe like you mention later in your post.
    Yes, some libraries have different sampled ranges based on the articulation. Sometimes a solo patch has a wider range than an ensemble patch too.
    Likely, it wasn't evened out when it was produced. It could also be that round robins are on or you're playing with different note velocities. I've had to mess with some sections in EastWest's Hollywood Diamond series pretty hard to tweak the balances, so I feel your pain. I'm sure some folks here will have more balance suggestions for you (like draw in CC7 or automate volume/mixer changes, but that can be a chore).
     
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  3. #3 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 12, 2018
    Don't do this with all instruments and articulations.

    I am not. I balance the articulations within a single instrument first, then balance that instrument against the other instruments that belong to the same family. So, I use a recording reference of a woodwind chord and try to match it with my woodwind ensemble and see if I could match the same level of volume difference between the instruments.

    I'm assuming you're balancing either in Kontakt/Sample player or your DAW's mixer and summing the channels. Yes, you need to balance the articulations because the producers have a spotty record of doing this accurately. Like you've observed in Mike's class, there's no way a violin section pizz sounds as loud as sustain. Or staccato versus sustain oboe like you mention later in your post.

    Yes, I am using the DAW volume control. I leave Kontakt default volume untouched. I remember what Mike said about the realistic volume difference between a short note and a long note. But if I'm not mistaken what he did is that he played the highest note that the instrument can produce and matched it to the sustain patch with the mod-wheel all the way up. For example, I played the staccato patch of the Oboe at its highest velocity and matched it to the sustain patch at it's highest dynamic. Thanks to the VU meter, I could tell the number that I want to reach which is in my case -3db.

    Are you saying that the peak of a short note shouldn't be the same as a long note like -3db for long and -6db for short? If that's what you're saying, then the shorts will have a hard time reaching out to the mix.

    Yes, some libraries have different sampled ranges based on the articulation. Sometimes a solo patch has a wider range than an ensemble patch too.

    Thanks for the clarification. I started to think there was something wrong with my patches.

    Likely, it wasn't evened out when it was produced. It could also be that round robins are on or you're playing with different note velocities. I've had to mess with some sections in EastWest's Hollywood Diamond series pretty hard to tweak the balances, so I feel your pain. I'm sure some folks here will have more balance suggestions for you (like draw in CC7 or automate volume/mixer changes, but that can be a chore).

    Yes, Mike did complained about OT recordings. Maybe the new Berlin REVIVE fixed it?
    I can't do magic here. It would be agunly painful to match the volume level of each short note in a single short patch. Since the highest note is supposed to be the piercing note of the instrument, I'll stick with that. No one can beat the real thing. No one can reach perfection.
     
  4. #4 Bradley Boone, Nov 13, 2018
    I would not try to match all articulations from the same instrument to -3db on the meter, but it may vary based on the instrument. Some articulations will be softer from the same instrument played at its loudest. You should also leave head room for accents and marcatos. Like pizz at -6db and sustain at -3db (maybe someone has a more accurate sense of what the precise numbers would be - Mike does mention them in his tutorial). And Bartok pizz is louder than standard pizz because of the percussive slap of the string on the neck, but still softer than a sustain. Conversely, a staccato piccolo high note will come pretty close to a high sustain in peak intensity, so there is probably slightly less variance with winds/brass than strings.
    Check with @Aaron Venture @Alexander Schiborr (sorry if I left anyone out - please chime in) for their secret sauce and specifics. I enjoy their mixes.
    In the end, studios do all kinds of trickery that would not be possible in a live performance and this is true when working with samples. You can have a solo flute playing a D4 (just above middle C) heard over a tutti orchestra on a solo mix, but never as easily in a live performance (without a solo mic). The same should be true for solo vs section microphone balances. 3 trumpets at ff are louder than 1 at ff, but I hear a lot of mixes equally balanced (to -3db) which is unrealistic.
    Hope this helps and that you get some more input.
     
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  5. #5 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 13, 2018
    Another trouble I'm having besides the volume variation in the core notes is the legato patch. I was playing around with the legato Clarinet from OT and noticed that the notes overlapping triggers a transition sound which is realistic, but ends up in increasing the volume in a sudden dramatic way! The volume reached the red zone, so it increased from -3db to let's say 2.1db which is ear piercing and disturbing. I remember what Mike Verta said about the different levels of articulations in the Strings, but he was playing to ear not precise numbers. I'm the type of guy who's extremely organized and would like to follow a path as accurately as possible.

    I'll send them a private message to notify them about this thread and Mike Verta as well. The tutorial was extremely good, but there are followups that need to be taken care of and details that cannot be discussed unless you tried doing the balance yourself. I'm surprised you're the only cared enough to comment here. Everyone don't realize that if they managed to do this correctly, they'll have a fantastic sounding orchestra, so next time just load the template and plug/play.
     
  6. #6 Mike Verta, Nov 13, 2018
    What Bradley said.

    Also, I balance by ear. I know how loud a violin section f pizz is relative to other families - that's from years of playing in an orchestra - and while it's possible to quantify that in terms of db, there are far too many variables to make it truly trustworthy. Proportion is more important than absolute spl!
     
  7. #7 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
    Thank you Mr. Mike for joining this thread. I appreciate every comment we can get from industry professionals. I'll try to search for an article that talks about this. Perhaps they could offer a precise numbers that I can follow. I only recorded live once in my life, so it's extremely difficult for me to do this by ear. I'll have to follow a guidance.

    EDIT:

    I have found an article that says that this book covers the numerical ratio to balance the instruments. Is it true?
     
  8. #8 Mike Verta, Nov 13, 2018
    Probably; I'd have to break mine out and look, but personally I wouldn't trust it. There are just a million factors - every orchestra has a different version of forte, depending on the piece, the conductor, the weather... So often sections will balance themselves relative to other sections sort of independently of dynamic marking. Players can quickly tell who's playing what role in a piece, and any good orchestra will adjust to fit the intended role. If a woodwind section is taking the lead and strings can tell they're marked too loud and are drowning it out, 9 times out of 10 the concertmaster will have them pull back. It's an organic thing, not a letter-of-the-law thing.

    Plus, I just think from a bird's-eye view standpoint, almost everything is more important than strict fake-balance in a fake-orchestra. I think I would put all your energy into composition, and let the technical stuff serve that. An improperly balanced virtual template might be hurting your ability to learn to orchestrate on a virtual orchestra, but that won't really work anyway. Go and bribe instrumentalists to let you listen to them, which is cheap and readily available for that. Everytime somebody posts here, I stop them and ask them to do the simple two-handed, playable piano version. 99 out of 100 times that lays bare all the flaws of a piece and puts the spotlight where it needs to be. To date, I've yet to hear a composition that was so structurally or melodically flawless that it was time to discuss the particulars of orchestration.
     
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  9. #9 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 13, 2018
    Ok, I was called for help! :D

    Well what a broad and unfortunately complex subject..

    First: Most libraries if not every library is non consistent when it comes to levels with different articulations. Sometimes it is decent, often it is not. Some libraries are even wrong balanced on purpose because of the times we live. Like with most libraries their spiccatos are way through the roof and that is because most developers tailor their libraries to the modern HZ Blockbuster music these days where realistic balance doesn´t matter anymore.
    So what you @Abdulrahman Al-Othman experienced with the different levels throughout the range of the oboe is unfortunately a thing every composer using sample libraries has to battle with. If you know the problems you can start getting used to work around that issue. One way to work around that is just to use then lower velocities in your melodic lines and even them out manually by programming (which can be tedious). As most sample libraries are anyways recorded with 2, maxium 3 velocity layers the difference in a bit of less velocity doesn´t change the timbre that radically so that it sounds too different.

    Also what the other guys say: There are short articulations sounding not that loud like the sustains, e.g. for Strings. Think of sustains vs. Spiccato or even Pizzicato which are even quiter.

    Second: What imo helps a lot and maybe the most to balance out an orchestra is (especially when you don´t have a long time live experience) to use an actual reference recording of a piece which you are going to mockup with samples. That is the way I balance often my templates in order to get the relative sections "right" to each other. And I stick to one recording.

    Lets take an example of the Olympic Fanfare of Wiliams:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/75b6afhmbz84wll/Olympic_Stuff_reference.mp3?dl=0

    Lets put the mockup in comparison:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/fsqy6twgxxkedvf/JW_Olympic_Transcription_Studies_Mockup.mp3?dl=0

    While the clone is not perfect it gives you imo a good start and perspective.

    Imo you should also stick to one recording, so don´t mix different recordings as they differ in ensemble size, room characteristics, mixing approach and of course day performance and so different types of recordings can also sound sonically different in balance.

    To balance the sections you have to use your ear, and don´t rely too much on just absolute volume meters only. If it sounds good, it sounds good even if the volume meter sais probably something different.

    Third: Another point of the balancing part is using eq to your own advantage. EQ is not only important to get rid of problematic frequency build up but also useful to move instruments in the Z-Depth and the Stereo field using mid/side eq techniques. That means you can attenuate highs and lows in order to move an instrument farer away without using reverb and you can thin out e.g. the center stereo in order to move instruments more to the sides or to the mid (like winds), or simply to make space for the more mid centered instruments.

    I actually came to a point where I use reverb very sparingly and mostly for glueing the different sections and add a bit of tail to some samples which are too dry so that their release smoothen out a bit when a melodic line stops.

    Hope that helps!
     
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  10. #10 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
    Thanks everyone for the invaluable information!

    This is what I try to do. I follow a one recording reference that I like and try to match it. I keep using that template for many compositions which makes my life easy and my orchestration more proper. After finishing Mike's tutorial, I immediately started balancing my template. I was so excited. I even bought the newly released EW Spaces ii plugin. In fact, I'm going to let you listen to this audio sample of mine to judge the quality of my work yourself. Please note that I had to do further level adjustments to make it more balance, especially that I have a solo Oboe resting on a body of smooth string ensemble.

    EDIT:

    Here's another example of my fan-made score with a more "studio" sound than a concert hall.
     
  11. #11 Bradley Boone, Nov 14, 2018
    It's true it covers it (like 1 Trumpet = 2 Horns, etc.), but there's a ton of variability as Mike said. If the trumpets, trombones, or percussion want to bury the orchestra in sound, then they can, but it isn't stylistically appropriate for a lot of music to have that kind of balance. If you're writing with a late 19th century orchestra, then that text is an (old) standby. There is a lot of wiggle room in what performers interpret as "forte": genre, regional tastes, place in the concert program, whatever.

    Mike's "balance by ear" approach is the quickest, but least satisfying way for someone trying to meticulously zero in every articulation. It is also what live musicians and conductors do every time they play, which he and Alexander both also alluded to. So take a musicians approach to your DAW performance and anticipate tweaking and refining it to fit your needs. Keep in mind your max levels to avoid clipping and balance to taste.

    I'd perform the passages in and balance that one instrument's performance, then blend it with a section, then blend the section with the orchestra, then mix the orchestra (EQ, compression, etc.). Alexander mentioned techniques to help with the spacial aspects (Z-depth, mid/side EQ) to keep the mix transparent which helps with balance. If everything in the final mix is equal across stereo field, then it is hard to locate the instruments spacially and sonically because all of the frequencies tend to build up and become indistinguishable.

    Lastly, Mike's comment about the craft of composing versus the craft of mastering DAW techniques are rabbit holes we all fall into at some point. Too much time in the DAW world can lead to unrealistic orchestrations, too little time leads to bad virtual representations of your piece. Too many of us, myself included, try to substitute the DAW work for composition and you'll hear Mike rail against that every chance he gets :)
    -----
    Your "Swan Lake" excerpt has a lot of great moments. The biggest give away that it is virtual is it could use a little more rubato throughout and some abrupt dynamic shifts that would be smoother if played by live musicians. Specifically, a more measured decrescendo (like at around 1:15). Also, more dynamic motion in the string tremolos throughout the opening section (there are numerous notated swells in the score, but I don't hear much movement in the strings). Check your CC1 or CC11 curves to see how much you're actually moving, because it is very subtle.

    I saw your Cinderella video in a previous thread and it too is very good. Some of the low brass pads (starting at :21 in the video) are a little dynamically static (more taper on the release of the sustained notes might sound more realistic). There could be more swells (both crescendo & decrescendo) throughout all of the individual lines. The French horns seem too distant and the low pads too loud. But overall both of your mixes are very good Abdulrahman. I would focus more on the dynamic movement of the lines and just a couple of balance/depth issues.
     
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  12. #12 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 14, 2018
    Thank you!

    I believe I have nothing further to add.

    But remember what I said about the Clarinet legato sudden volume peak? It's good if you want realistic transition, but it will force me to choose a lower peak than -3db to compensate for that sudden rise in volume. So in my case I think I should leave a headroom like at -5db or do you fix it with compression? (I think compression will kill the realism)
     
  13. #13 Bradley Boone, Nov 15, 2018
    You can manually draw it in to reduce the jump in volume (a tedious chore, but draw volume envelopes or CC7 can work), apply light compression, have the legatos on a separate track with reduced volume, or get a different clarinet library. I like the Embertone Herring Clarinet ($100USD), but it isn't the most playable sample library. Maybe someone else has a trick up their sleeve.
     
  14. #14 Aaron Venture, Nov 19, 2018
    Well, that's fair if you're checking peak levels at same dynamics. But like others have said, a player can blow harder for an accent, but they can't necessarily keep that level of loudness for a sustained note.

    Could be they forgot to record it, or that they couldn't really get usable samples in that range. These extreme notes in wind instruments are pretty hard for the players.

    Kontakt has built in volume and EQ options, as well as modulators, curves and various sources like key-position, etc, as well as per-sample volume editing. For any unlocked patch, you can go under the hood and change everything. A lot of recording mistakes can be fixed here, so I'd call it more of a programming issue than a recording issue.
     
  15. #15 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Nov 20, 2018
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