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Why is the B part in the opening to "Star Wars" not a different peice?

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Eric Grace-Dixon, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. #1 Eric Grace-Dixon, Dec 31, 2017
    I am watching Unleashed, and notice how often Mike says "well, this is now a different piece". And I understand why he keeps saying that.

    But here is what I do not understand. The B part (I think that is what it is called, if not forgive me! :) ) in the opening titles of Star Wars, which, for reference, comes in here at 27 seconds:



    So, Mike, if you were critiquing that cue, would you say at 27 seconds, "well, this is now a different piece"? Or not?

    So, here's getting down to it. If it is a different piece, why is it ok, and if is not a different piece, why isn't it?

    Thank you!
     
  2. #2 Mike Verta, Jan 1, 2018
    Because it's a B-section, and it's based on a modification of the A-section - a two-note interval followed by descending line. It is harmonically, rhythmically and thematically consistent with what comes before and after it.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  3. #3 Alexander Schiborr, Jan 1, 2018
    You can have different ideas for a b - Section for sure but it makes sense to keep an element or something from your A Section which is re-stated in the B Theme. It can be either rhythmic or a melodic, or harmony thing. In my opinion a strong b section is essentiel for a maintheme and it is not b in terms of hirarchy, it is sometimes even more important. A strong B theme makes the A theme even stronger. It is a marriage and therefor so important to learn and master it over time. Sure your example features one of the best example how a B Section should be like..

    I can recommend for you a masterclass I think it is structure from Mike. I think he talks there a lot of the principles of B themes and how to do the things.
     
  4. #4 Adam Alake, Jan 1, 2018
    Well, that is an easy example because in this case the B section actually has a lot in common with the main theme. But there are many Williams examples where that is not the case (Battle of Yavin), which is why you should watch Structure to find out how it works.
     
  5. #5 Daniel Urban, Jan 3, 2018
    To me the part at 27 seconds makes total sense and sounds more like a variation of the first theme than an actual B-Section. At 1:20 however it starts to sound more like a different piece. Is this "okay" or doesn't sound weird because the main idea is fairly easy to grasp and properly stated so there is nowhere to go from there and hence this kind of more dramatic change sounds right? At 1:40 however he keeps repurposing stuff again and later on of course as well. Still struggle with this myself a lot ...

    Edit: BTW, first post, so hey everyone! Been more of a quiet reader for some time. And thanks Mike for this resourceful and nice place!
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  6. #6 Mike Verta, Jan 3, 2018
    We can do infinite variations on themes/craft sections and capitalize on elements from the piece and stay consistent in our harmonies and tonality. This is essentially what I do in any one of the sample library demos I do. Those could be hours long if I wanted them to be, because there are almost an infinite number of ways to capitalize on and repurpose established patterns.

    When I critique a piece as suddenly being a different piece it's because it doesn't capitalize on or build on or repurpose anything it just completely switches gears and restarts. It's a fairly easy critique to make because it's not based on opinion it's a structural fact. To help you unravel the formula start taking any great melodies - the Williams ones are probably as perfect as any - and answer the question why it works for yourself. Discover why these be sections are connected to and build on what's come before. The answer is: because they're connected to and build on what's come before. Specifically look for the parallels - they'll be intervallic, they'll be rhythmic, they'll be harmonically based... all sorts of things!
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  7. #7 Jeff Laity, Jan 3, 2018
    If the A-theme is intervalic, often the B-theme will be scalar. The first notes of the B-theme have a similar rhythm to the first notes of the A-theme. The end of the first B theme phrase echos the beginning of the A-theme. Rhythm is more identifiable than pitches, so if you use a similar rhythm in the B-section then they can feel connected. But maybe the B-theme starts on the upbeat instead of the downbeat. Etc etc.
     
  8. #8 Doug Gibson, Jan 3, 2018

    You know "How to write a better B section" could be a good class topic since it came up so much in the Unleashed.

    Daniel: I hear what you are saying. I think I can shed a little light here. ( *I am not a big Star wars fan. I like the original 3 but I certainly don't want to "fuck them".)

    Context matters. I believe Lucas originally pitched Star Wars as a "Space Opera". Williams is drawing off the old Opera Overture style of the late 1800's, and the Korngold scores, that presented the main themes in a "Cliff Note" or "Trailer" version. Each leitmotif is being presented and will be later developed.

    It's foreshadowing. Remember we were also watching that ridiculously long scroll of words, and this also helps place our association with what we are hearing (if you actually read it.)
     
    Daniel Urban likes this.
  9. #9 Adam Alake, Jan 3, 2018
    We already have that class, the name is Structure.
     
  10. #10 Doug Gibson, Jan 3, 2018
    Your name is Structure ? Very 007 of you.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  11. #11 Adam Alake, Jan 5, 2018
    Structure, James Structure. Vodka Martini, shaken, not stirred.
     
    Phillip J. Faddoul likes this.
  12. #12 Eric Grace-Dixon, Jan 11, 2018
  13. #13 Adam Alake, Jan 11, 2018
    Nobody said it is the same rhythm, they are similar.

    But you do not need to do any indepth analysis to hear that the A and B sections resemble each other.
     
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