Short orchestral piece - critique/advice needed

Hi Stan. Nice to see you joining Redbanned! Can you upload a simple, 2-hand piano version of your piece? I just think it'll be a lot easier to work with, so we can really get into the nuts n bolts of it and look at the music at that fundamental level, rather than trying to deal with everything that's going on in the mock-up.

 

I tend to agree. That's also how I perceived it.

That's perfect! That's all we need to hear. It doesn't matter if you're not a great pianist. That's not the point of the piano reduction. Its just a process to allow us to really focus in on what the essence of your piece is.. To clearly define the parts that really matter, and then to work your piece from there.

 

that would be called that a piano piece

All the more reason to listen to Mike and make one, no distractions

Just for the record, there is no such thing as a 'simple' 9/8. Most people can't feel that at all so you're bordering on alienating them from the very start.
It took me 4 or 5 times through the beginning to hear what it was you're trying to do, now that I 'hear' it, it makes sense i guess
but I couldn't lock on to it at all for a while and that's not a good thing.
In fact I still can't nail the melody, so maybe simplify even more: Try singing it while just clapping or playing the bass notes on the piano.
It's really floating all over the place rhythmically (or I'm dense, or both..) but either way, nobody likes to feel stupid.

If you're going to do odd time signature you have to, HAVE TO guide us very carefully every step of the way.
I.e. whatever is going on underneath it all must have very clear patterns

There are other issues but follow Mike's and Phillip's advice and you'll be 95% there,
worry about the rest later

 

Wow....... what is going on with the notation ? Did you read a book on historical practices of the orchestra or something ?

No one notates things like this. I think this is actually what is throwing people off. That "pipe organ" sort of muddy sound from 30' -1:00"
The clefs might be throwing you off. It would throw a real orchestra off. No one writes the Trombones in Tenor clef except for high
register things. Almost everything can simply be covered with bass clef. Ever since the invention of valves, no one would notates the trombones like this.

Also switching the Horns to tenor clef makes no sense. You actually have the horn and Bass Trombone in unison (same pitch, with different rhythms)
at measure 20. (if you are still using transposing score for this. It also makes it unclear if you actually want it to be an E - aka concert pitch)
So when the Cello and Bassoon play the B next to the A in that low register a 2nd simply produces a "muddy" sound.
Again, since the invention of valves no one notates things like this.

There are numerous spots with these "rubs" of seconds produces a sharp dissonance which hides the direction of the music. It actually is pretty simple,but you are making things way more difficult than they need to be.

 

No problem. You seem like a nice guy, and wanting to learn. We all know it's hard.

Since you seem open to honest feedback, "over-orchestration" has nothing to do with any of this.
You simply don't have a strong foundation yet for orchestration. Yes, pull it back.

In University orchestration classes usually one of the first restrictions put on assignments is to make
only use two sections. Each has to be both harmonically complete and rhythmically consistent.

Like timbres blend with like timbres. Just as the piano does.
Looking at the notated score, there are a number of things I simply can't hear in the original mock-up.
They would not be heard in real life either. Nothing is worse than having a player work hard on something that can't be hear.

If you simply cleared out the "rubs" ( the minor 2nd, and minor 9th in measure 7), and stopped emphasizing the 3rd beat
of the measure with your bass, people will lock onto the piece much, much faster.

Below is an example of what I mean.

 

I would say first make a Top 10 or 20 list of orchestral pieces that have moments that YOU wished YOU wrote.

Don't make it too long. 8 measures is fine, and 16 measures would be a healthy measurement to being with. (you can do more later as you learn more)
Take the score ( Make sure you can get the real score) and copy it out, every single aspect (dynamics, articulations etc.) with pencil/pen and paper.

As you write it out, try and sing as much as possible the parts you are writing out. Those who sing have an advantage over those who do not. (don't worry about
the quality of your voice, just the pitch accuracy.)

Do this for your top 10. So 80 measures.

As a bonus:
For one of the scores you really like, copy it out a 2nd time. Then see if you can write out all 8 measures from memory.

These things will creep into your subconscious somewhere. In the beginning memory is closely correlated with expertise.
You'll start to notice "trends" composers use, or things will jump out at you like "I've never seen anyone notate the horns like that".

Personally I do think most people are much better off having a teacher and lessons, but doing the above would be a great lesson in an of itself.

For hundreds of years composers of the past hand to copy out scores by hand. It's a tried and true exercise.

 

Hi Stan, Merry Christmas.

It's definitely a lot clearer now and easier to hear whats really going on in there.

My comment would be about composition. Listening through to your piece several more times, I still cant quite lock on to your melody. I CAN sort of remember it now while I'm listening to it, but only due to sheer repeated listening. It really shouldn't take that much effort to digest.

So, in my opinion, you need to take a few steps back with this piece, and strengthen those main ideas. Get the foundation strong before building upon it.

I'd start by establishing simpler and clearer patterns out of your ideas. Give them more structure and take advantage of more repetition, especially in your main melody, to really hammer it home, and clearly define it as your main idea.

Also, I think your intro section ( 0:00 - 0:25 ) could really benefit from putting in the 1 beat. Clearly define that beat 1. For the the first few bars there, it's almost impossible to feel where 1 is and you're completely throwing off your audience. The first note of music we hear is beat 2, so your audience is going to think that's beat 1, and then their perception of your piece from that point on is going to be all wrong. So I'd definitely get that 1 in there, nice and clear, to orient your listeners.

Hope this is helpful!

 

You're welcome.

 

Doug,

Great work with this. You really improved it and made it much clearer.

 

Not much I can add with regard to the issues the piece had, I'm hearing the same things they are.

With regard to learning more about orchestration I've found it really useful to take a step back and get more familiar with the different ensembles. My initial tendency was to over orchestrate too and the result was a confused mess. Spend some time writing a few simple 8-16 bar pieces for each ensemble, starting with a piano sketch and then orchestrating it. I found the strings the easiest to work with, so I started there. Then moved to brass and finished with the wind ensemble. This process helped me become more comfortable in using the different ensembles and made me more familiar with their individual instruments.

After that I went back to writing for orchestra. A good piece of advice I received was to orchestrate like it's a chamber orchestra. Don't begin by putting the melody on 4 different instruments or doubling it over multiple octaves, pick one or two instruments only. Same goes for harmony, pick one family. As your skills improve you can move to more complex orchestration, but don't fall into the trap of thinking more = better/louder. Learn to say more with less.

I'm not sure what your level of technical knowledge is, but Orchestration Online's MOOC (free) from 2016 may be a useful entry for string composition. https://orchestrationonline.com/moooc/

 

The MOOOC isn't something you sign up for, at least not now. The course itself ran in 2016, but that's not important. At the bottom of that link is a list to all the teaching videos from the course. It should take you all the way through scoring solo instruments to accompanied soloists and to an ensemble.