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The Sound Of The 2nd Violins

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Tino Danielzik, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Hey everyody,

    I wonder, how big/small is the actual sound difference between the 1st and 2nd Violins sections? E.g. the sound of the 2nd Violins in LASS is very different in comparison to its 1st Violins section. In other libraries like EW Hollywood Strings there isn't that much difference. Andrew from Audiobro (LASS) already said, that he just reused the samples from the 1st Violins section but changed a bit the overall sound to avoid phasing issues. But maybe he did a bit too much?

    Yes the 2nd Violins section is a bit smaller, but the difference is in most cases just two violins. In recordings and concerts it's hard to separate them. So maybe someone with some recording/concert experience can give me some advice.

    Regards,
    Tino
     
  2. Interesting question. Since the question is about the actual "tone/sound" and not the "role" I am going to fire first and say next to none.
    It would be an interesting experiment - like those label free wine tasting tests - to see how much people are influenced by the word 2nd.

    Basically my answer will be that the biggest factors are not the violins but on how they positioned to the audience.
    I wish I could draw like a white board on here. Ok..... you see that photo behind your head ? (Tino) See how the strings make a rainbow
    over the conductor ?

    For most of the end of the 20th century the violins went 1 and then 2 on the left side (audience view point) of the conductor. This brings them out a little more. They are closer to the audience than the 2nd, and they play generally in a higher register which makes them stand out.

    However, Mahler (and others like him) always had the violins seated in stereo opposite of each other. So Violins 1 - hard left - Violin 2 hard right.
    This creates more of a "call and response", and here the "tones" are much more polyphonic.
    Also, particularly since the 90's, a number of new concert halls have the audience behind the orchestra.

    My point being that in a concert hall what gives away the 2nds is where they are seated.

    If you had a blind test where each individual comes up and plays for you..... no difference in tone.

    I can also tell you, from working at the NY Phil and watching them rehearse for 2 years, that another myth is that the shittest players are in the back. That's not always true. In baseball when you are a kid you put the worst player in the outfield. Once you reach the big leagues they can all play. Also, orchestras want a even quality throughout so the players rotate for different concerts. (except principles.)
    That said, sometimes the worst players are in the back, but they can also be right behind the concert master.
     
    Tino Danielzik likes this.
  3. #3 Tino Danielzik, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    Thanks Doug. Yeah, I know about the different seating positions. The picture behind my head is a nice reminder for balancing my template the right way. :D
    Anyway, since there is no real difference between the 1st and 2nd Violins, would you say on a recording there is some kind of sound difference, due to the position next to the 1st violins which causes different delays and an overall sound shaping?
    So if we focus on the sound difference of the 2nd Violins not as a stand alone section but in the overall recording and performance context, would you say there is some kind of significant difference?


    BTW: You've asked me in one of your threads about my Woodwind cue, I am still working on it, figuring out what you did with the material so I can recapitulate your compositional steps and integrate them into my work. ;)
     
  4. In my opinion: no. Any difference would be due to other factors. (register, who bowed the music etc.) Remember professional orchestras go to pretty far lengths to hide these issues. You sometimes find composers who think there is a massive difference between down bow vs up bow. In theory, there is some truth to this due to gravity, but professional violinist spend years to create a balanced tone between the two.

    The concert master generally bows the parts to create a more unified sound.

    No. String are the most homogeneous blending group. To be clear, I do think you can "pick out" which are violin 2's but for other reasons.

    One way you can listen for yourself is by finding interlocking voicings between the two. I think in Debussy's prelude - too lazy to write whole title- he encloses the 1st violins with the 2nds. Ahh.... I know.

    Have a listen to this famous vertigo cue. Here violin 1 and 2 take turns being above each other. Also when we get to the big climax, violin 1&2 are in unison. If there was a tone difference it would stick out when in unison.



    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    PS. I thought I had labeled all the devices on the PDF for the woodwind piece. If you have any questions, just ask. I am happy to explain further if you wish.
     
    Paul T McGraw and Tino Danielzik like this.
  5. Hi Tino,
    LIke Doug pretty much explained and said everything right imo. Yes, the 2nd Violins are not the same but sure from their sound and sonic fingerprint, like timbre etc, they do sound practically the same. The only difference for me and what I experienced is that their appear slightly different in the stereofield panaroma, whilst the 1st Violins are often a bit more panned left and slightly more upfront the 2nd violins are a little more to the right of the them.
    Their function what Doug also said is in concert works quite different as their are the supporting role for the 1st Violins and very often the lower doublers, or harmonic glue fillers.
     
    Tino Danielzik likes this.
  6. Thank you guys very much! It really helped me, now I have a better sensibility for my string writing and mixing. :)

    Regards,
    Tino
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.

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