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This will do for now

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Duncan Formosa, Aug 18, 2021.

  1. #1 Duncan Formosa, Aug 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
    Update further down....

    Been trying to have a go at writing something "epic" but I've hit a brick wall now and could use some help.

    There's a lot that I like about this piece but there's a big gapping hole in the middle of it, Specifically 0:31 - 1:54. I feel like 0:31 should be where the percussion really starts to kick in but I don't want to over do it. Drums aren't my strong point so any guidance on how to come up with rhythms for different percussion instruments would be much appreciated.

    I think from 1:54 onwards I can probably ditch the "epic" drums right? I feel this section is quite strong. Maybe get woodwinds to add some pulsing rhythm or something like that just to keep it moving? Or is that maybe a little too much?

    I have a good feeling about this one so hopefully I can figure out the missing ingredient and finish it soon.

     
  2. #2 Marko Dvojkovic, Aug 19, 2021
    Hey Duncan!
    Cool piece!
    I can tell you what your piece is missing right away, god farts!
    Just kidding hehe, although honestly I wouldn't be shy to place a swoosh/riser leading to an impact on couple of places. I think there is no harm in that, to where it musically fits to augment a musical and dramatic moment or swell with some cool noise also. It can be effective if it is not over used.

    Now in the part from 0:31-1:54 you are missing something in the pad department to hold the chords.
    Also I personally would make that ostinato that you have bouncing a bit between high and low strings to straight sixteenth notes, I think that would solve your feeling of missing pulse and give it that drive.

    So that is where I would personally start from in filling the holes.

    Oh and regarding drums I think that a good guideline is to look at it really like at a drum kit. And as it is possible to bring the whole groove on a drum kit with bass drum, snare and hi hat, I would approach it the same way with so called epic drums.
    Choose a high sound for the "hi hat" a middle one for the "snare" and a low one for the "bass drum" and start from there.

    I hope that there are some ideas that will help you to finish it and am curious to hear the finished version :).

    Cheers!
     
    Duncan Formosa likes this.
  3. #3 Duncan Formosa, Aug 30, 2021
    I just tried to put pads down here, I don't know why I didn't think of that before. Some synth pads and a choir pad to continue with the whole voice thing that was introduced gives it such a lovely flying type feel to it. And the percussion part is starting to sound pretty decent in this section too!

    Still needs some work. Definitely need to clean up the performance something terrible. Timings are all over the place. Wish I used a click on this one.

    I'm a bit iffy with swooshes. Probably because I've heard them used so much. Used to think they were really cool but I'm burnt out on them. Although maybe if I just use 1 where it really counted it could make all the difference.

    I had tried doing this initially but wasn't getting very far with it. I think the groove was all wrong. Although as I said earlier I think I found something that's decent and not too OTT.

    Thanks for your help! I'm quite excited about this one so hopefully it turns out well in the end.
     
    Marko Dvojkovic likes this.
  4. #4 Paul Poole, Aug 31, 2021
    Duncan, I don't have time to go over the whole thing right now but since you mentioned 1:54, at that point see if you can come up with a good countermelody for the horns to go against the voice part without stepping on it. And at that same point try doubling timpani rolls with your bass part for that section and probably till the end of the piece. I don't know about that timp sound you're using at the moment, though. Seems a bit dry and hard. You want something that will blend as more of a sustained effect rather than a percussive one. In any case, you need to amp up to a fuller and more fleshed out dimension for that last section.
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
  5. #5 Duncan Formosa, Sep 13, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
    Okay, so after working on this for 20 hours I've decided that this is the best I can do with this piece just now. I'm not 100% happy with it which is a shame because I think this piece could be the really good but every time I think I know what the piece needs it just never sounds right. So here's what I've got so far and this is what I think it needs.



    1. At around 1:00 where the drums stop, my intention was to give the drums a break so that when the piece builds up to the next part you really feel it hit you. I still stand by that, but I've been struggling trying to find a good transition so it doesn't just die. Sounds like the percussionist went for a coffee and came back later. I tried to do as @Marko Dvojkovic suggested and adding a swoosh / riser, but all of the ones I could find were far too OTT for my liking. I just want a kind of airy/floaty kind of feeling. Like a breeze in the wind, kind of like you're flying. But everything I found was like opening the ark of the covenant and getting your face melted off.

    2. 1:20 doesn't feel quite as big as I was hoping. Particularly the staccato bass notes. Just feels like after the build up we had before this that it just gets a little too thin all of a sudden. Is that just me? Was also debating putting some drums in. Not low drums like the taikos I used earlier, but toms or something that would follow after the bass line. So after the 4 bass notes the toms would play 4 16th notes or something like that.

    3. 1:55 I used to quite like this part, but maybe feels a tad empty since it's mainly sustained chords? I did try to have woodwinds create a pulse at some point and have the flutes do an arperggio in 16th notes just to give it some movement, but then I thought it started to sound very cluttered. I then tried doing the little strings shimmer with the celli and violas that Mike talks about but that also started to muddy things. Maybe it's fine as it is and I've heard it too much that I feel it needs more? Again, decided not to go too far with the drums, felt timp was enough.

    4. ...needs a better title

    What does everyone else think? Do you agree with the ideas above? If so, how do you think I could go about dealing with these ideas? I'm hoping to find something that fits a little better in these areas.

    For now I'm going to try and step back from this one for a while and come back to it with fresh ears. This ones been rather tough so I think the next piece I'll try and make a lot smaller. Maybe something just for strings, or piano and violin...Anything as long as it's not this!
     
  6. #6 Carlos Riesco, Sep 13, 2021
    Maybe that's because the rest of the orchestra keeps playing the same rhythm and the horns are still playing the melody, so it doesn't feel like is a new section. What if you drop the drums at 0:52?

    Also you can try doing a roll before they stop. Think like rock bands when drummers stop playing, they do some kind of roll before to make to gap even bigger, like:

     
  7. #7 Ron Volkman, Sep 14, 2021
    Like always, you have to try a lot of things to see what you like.

    At 1:00 when the drum ensemble breaks, perhaps a single mid-percussion like a snare could continue the rhythm simply on the weak beats (2 & 4) or even a strike just on beat 4 to "keep the time".

    At 1:20, it sounds like trumpets and high strings build up to that point and then disappear. Why couldn't the trumpets build up and then continue the next line an octave above the horns?

    At 1:55, the sustained cords sound fine to me, but perhaps instead of sustaining, the trombones could play staccato "hits" on the weak beats again with a few rhythmic variations.
     
  8. #8 Bjarke Tan, Sep 14, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
    To me the melody seems to be the same throughout the piece just orchestrated in different ways. Like here is one way to express the melody here is an other. I think what would improve the piece is to make more clear that the melody is developing. Also the bassline would be improved if it where more melodic and not staying around the same place too much. I also feel like what's mostly have continuity throughout the piece is the melody but I would like to see parts from different sections be developed as well so it isn't just always the melody with something new on it but almost like as if everything in the piece is developed. I don't think we hear the celsta(?) ever again besides the beggning. Why only have it once? Also why only have the melody in the upper register? Why not in the bass?
     
    Rohann van Rensburg likes this.
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