Hans Zimmer's Dunkirk Score

Like Puff Daddy, mid-90s hype.
Like I said, Hans is the best at what he does.......including "hype".

 

i saw the movie (IMAX version) on Saturday. I've been a fan of Nolan's work since Memento, but his last 2 films haven't done it for me. Dunkirk's visuals are just amazing, specially on that huge screen, they're worth the price of admission, even if the movie is just "meh", the story was weak, i didn't care for the characters at all, but my main problem with the movie was the music... i haven't disliked a score that much in a long time. I'm not a Zimmer fan at all, specially his work on this century, but his Interstellar score gave me hope, since i enjoyed that music much more than his other "sound design oriented" scores. This time, i thought that not only i heavily dislike the composition (which is a matter of taste in the end), but also, THE USE OF MUSIC. Even though i understand that a story that happens during a battle in WW2 should be quite dramatic, i felt almost attacked by this super tense music that almost never gave up, and by the end, since the tension was present almost throughout the whole movie, it lost all its power, it was just loud annoying noise. Moreover, when suddenly a "hopeful" theme on the strings appeared, it felt like that release wasn't earned, since there wasn't any real structure, no question and answer, tension and release, melodic development, when that last cue started sounding it felt super weird, out of place, like writing a twelve-tone row based piece and ending it with a ii-V-I .
I obviously respect Hans as a composer, i even like some of his music and he's a master at what he does, and to be honest, this time i'd say that Nolan is even more guilty than him for this musical fiasco, since he's the one asking for this kind of music or feel. Sometimes we as composers just have to write whatever the director says (or get fired), even if we don't agree.

 

I thought Elgar did a great job on the score myself....

 

Wow, didn't think I'd find anyone who shared such specific eclectic influences! That movie had the same effect on me as a teen, and I think it was the first score I bought. Really profound emotional impact on me. The LOTR trilogy had a similar effect, but only a bit later.
And I completely agree re: Limbo. Inside was also phenomenal and the sound design overall in Inside took (I think?) the better part of 5 years.

Well said -- I completely agree.

I think "experience" is as or more important than communicability, at least for the work I'd like to do. I think many films/games are brilliantly suited to both, while others require less of the latter, the former obviously being essential (I can remember and communicate plenty of radio tunes I despise). I bring up Limbo because it's a fantastic example of this -- there aren't strong, obvious melodies that I can hum, but the relatively simple, sparse, atmospheric music is perfectly suited to a relatively simple, sparse, atmospheric game (Inside as well) -- there are some incredibly poignant moments the score creates as it highlights and really brings forth emotions like the loneliness and dream-like haze the player feels, or blends with the sound of the game in a "I'm-not-sure-if-this-is-diegetic" way.
Now that said, Limbo's score does contain a simple theme that develops and repeats, with some recognizable intervals that repeat throughout the game as well. While I can't hum it and at all fully convey the atmosphere it creates, the music had a profound emotional impact on me and I found it quite memorable, but I do think it's again because of this attention to cohesive development. Andersen is a classically trained composer, from what I recall.
I also think The Last Samurai had such an impact on me because of this as well -- not a traditional "true" long form score, but it was melodic and quite memorable, and I remember seeking out the score quite quickly after seeing the film. In contrast, I grew up with Star Wars, and while I loved it as a kid and the music was obviously well suited to it, the particular style didn't resound with me emotionally: memorable, but the experience wasn't terribly profound. I respect it, and see the value, and appreciate it, but I can't help that it does very little for me, and never really did (though I suspect it has more to do with tone than structure). Neither did Jurassic Park's score, neither did the first two Harry Potter scores (aside from Hedwig's theme), neither did Superman's score. Schindler's List was a very different story.

Where I've gradually guided my own philosophy in this regard is a marriage of these concepts -- traditional composition as the foundation, with production and sound design functioning as colour. Limbo's subtle, dreamlike score suited it perfectly because the game's sound was such a critical component of it. It incorporated sound design and production elements beautifully, but it did so over top of a recognizable, developing theme of sorts, as simple as it was. It also makes me think of Bladerunner's score, which aimed to do something similar in a rather different way. While I love the sound design elements of Limbo, I realize (like I keep mentioning) that it's vital for the foundation to draw from basic long-form concepts if the music is to tell a story -- something that hadn't occurred to me in a such a profound manner before I watched Mike's classes. It needs to connect from one end to the other. Marriage between classical form and context-appropriate sound design. I love the analogy of chefs vs cooks. I also certainly agree with Mike that this marriage is largely untapped in the modern film world.

I think where "sound design score" or "epic music" or "trailer music" turns into a 4-letter word is when it's overused and devoid of foundational basics, as tends to be the case in modern scores. The Marvel films are easy to pick on because they are so obviously suited to leitmotif and long-form development (but, ironically, they quite appropriately emulate the view of studio exec's on the franchise -- safe, predictable, inoffensive, unmemorable, and leaving plenty of room for the next installment. Cool scenes, no story). Similarly, would Limbo's score work for an open world adventure game that is "outwardly" rather than "inwardly" focused? Likely not. What's best for a film or game score is pprobably both broader (not restricted to "epic" or "sound design", as is the annoying trend) and more specific (i.e. adventurous, character-based = leitmotif) than what's commonly applied.

While I'm having a hard time articulating what I mean here, I think the takeaway is that it's demonstrably vital for one's music to be memorable, whether easily transportable or simply the memory of a significant experience (but I'd contend that hummable or transportable is preference- and context-specific). This requires attention to structure, development, contrast, and all the gems that are constantly emphasized in Mike's classes. I think it's precisely the reason to keep at improving this skill as long as one is alive and composing. Things like orchestration and sound design function far more like colour than structure, which is why sound design scores with no musical structure, or "trailer music", tends to be forgettable. The basic musical skills that take a great deal of time to develop well are undoubtedly the foundation. To be a good chef, one needs to understand the ingredients and how they blend, how they change and affect each other, and the roles they play. It's a lot more interesting and less perilous to break away from convention if one understands these basics, rather than throwing together a mix of ingredients and calling it food. Even if it tastes good, it doesn't necessarily mean it's food.

 

I'm also surprised to hear someone with such similar tastes. I sort of feel like a lone wolf every time I go to local meetups and try and have conversations on taste and inspiration. Unless we talk about Zimmer or Williams, most people have zero interest in the things I find fascinating.

Ab. So. Lutely! This is exactly what I had in mind in that comparison.

It's also why my ultimate goal is the same as yours, to blend these two schools of thought – the timbre-obsessive with the long-form structure. I think Mike is right about this too, it seems to be a somewhat untapped well in cinema AND games. Though, and this is my opinion, there are a few composers already killing it in both areas. Dario Marianelli, Alexandre Desplat, Thomas Newman and some of James Newton Howard's later scores are more sophisticated than their genre peers, but their use of textures is also achingly beautiful. They also have amazing mix engineers

 

I know the feeling, haha. It's nice to find a like-minded person. Even if I do talk about Zimmer it's usually not what people are interested in. Again, Last Samurai was a huge influence on me but I found Interstellar to be massively overhyped compared to some of his other work. Similarly with Williams -- most go "Star Wars!" (for good reason), where I say "Sure, but what about Schindler's List? Or Harry Potter 3?"

Indeed, I'm awfully excited to see where this will take me as it precisely details the scores I love and the reason I got into music initially. I'm confident it will remain relatively untapped, because statistically speaking, crafts that take a great deal of dedication and time to develop skill in don't tend to have a ton of people occupying them. The reason bad Zimmitation scores are everywhere are because, as Mike says, it's really easy, especially with modern VI's.

Absolutely. I'd argue some people are doing it in games too -- Jesper Kyd on occasion, Jeremy Soule, and a handful of others. I actually think it was incorporated into Limbo well enough, albeit on a simple level. Howard Shore is another obvious composer that's extremely long-form competent (at least in the scope of my current knowledge/experience).

It does bring me to another thought/point though, namely that of purpose, or role. Since games have come up here, I do agree that the best aspects of long-form development should be integrated where appropriate. I do think, however, that what serves the film/game and music best should be considered, and I don't think that's always a traditional long-form score. As discussed, Marvel's movies are an absurdly obvious candidate. But a film like the Revenant would have been far less impactful if stylized with a traditional long score; similarly with Blade Runner. I'm more than open to the idea that scores can be improved with most long-form elements being added, but I disagree that the basic structure and flow/style of a long-form score always best serves a film.

Especially so with games -- this is still something I'm trying to wrap my head around. I just don't see many games being well-suited to a traditional score unless they play out in a cinematic fashion. I do think recurring motifs and interconnectedness is vital in an open-world game, and it's what makes songs memorable. There are a decent amount of live concerts centered around game music (i.e. the often sold-out Zelda symphony touring internationally), and many game themes are commonly recognized by a wide-variety of people, and as such I consider other formats to be perfectly valid. I'm just not sure how to best serve those at times, and if there's a better way to do so than is currently being done (barring certain games like the Call of Duty series which tends to have generic AAA scores fitting the generic AAA gameplay and AAA lack of story or anything remotely memorable). What I have noticed is that I often remember many of these themes far more than films I see (in some cases due to repetition more than anything), but they really do often sound more unique.