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Another Template Question

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Sean Gosker, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. Hi guys and gals,

    Fist off loving this new forum it's a breath of fresh air, especially after the last two weeks of madness over on VI.

    So i'm need of some balancing advice, basically i'm not happy with how my Orchestral template sounds so i'm looking to
    re-balance it. When i first balanced my template it was so confusing, i watched and read so many ways to do it that i think i just gave up and in the end it sounded terrible. My question is, what combinations work best with template balancing? For example i used a combination of CC1 and CC11 at the opening bar and then tried to balance the instruments with CC7 using a score.
    When using CC7 i balanced the instruments to their loudest dynamic, is this correct? What i also noticed once i started recording the balancing went out the window when using CC1 and CC11, can anyone chime in and help a brother out ;)
     
  2. CC7 is just volume, set this once and don't touch it (this is useful for mixing but not achieving a natural balance). CC11 is also, usually volume, this is the one you can move. Keep in mind that not all libraries respond to controllers in the same way and some don't even respond to CC7 or 11 at all. Once you're happy with CC7 you can start tweaking the default CC1 and CC11 values, these should be used to balance the dynamics of the instruments.

    You want to move CC11 and CC1 around until you find the spot that sounds realistic for the dynamic that you're trying to replicate for the instrument, in its range, in a particular context - this is an ongoing process. I like to enter a score note by note and then adjust CC1 and CC11 for each track until it sounds as close (in dynamic terms) as I can get it to the recording. I usually just leave the articulation on sustain while I do this, then once I'm happy with the general balance I'll start adding in other articulations and things get fun. It's rare that the all articulations in a library are perfectly balanced with each other so you have to figure out some way to deal with that. Some libraries let you adjust the volume of each articulation independently and this can be very helpful.
     
    Sean Gosker likes this.
  3. Hi Dave thanks for the advice its much appreciated, so this all makes sense now but just to clarify, if i'm working off a score were the first four bars are mp and the next four are mf i can match these with a combination of CC1 and CC11? How would i utilize two different dynamics within one instrument? Is this done with the two dynamics wrote into the first bar of each instrument? Sorry for the newbie questions but for some reason i find this really confusing.:confused:
     
  4. #4 TD Gary, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
    From the Alexander Publishing series Visual Orchestration, the recommendation was to start with the strings and use that as your aural anchor to tie everything else down in terms of matching dynamics. I personally begin by balancing the strings with each other at mezzo forte, then the winds and finally brass against the strings, also at mezzo forte. Percussion is still pretty tricky for me, but I have some success starting with the timpani and bass drums or toms because I know how loud I like them to be in comparison to strings, and I balance all the other percussion against those.

    How this works is first by setting the mod wheel (CC1 or whatever it is within your sample library that controls sample cross-fading for dynamics) in the very center position, which should roughly give you a mezzo forte for any sustained instrument patch. Then you have those instruments each play a sustained note while you adjust the volume, CC07, by ear so that they sit at the correct level. Naturally, if you start with the strings, you set them to a correct level, then adjust everything else to fit that (don't touch the strings volume again once you have them set!)

    Unfortunately, none of this advice can really help if you haven't heard a real orchestra play live and in-person. You need that experience to give yourself a reference for how loud instruments should be when playing at certain dynamics. Otherwise, you will need to listen to a large number of recordings and find one that you like best to try and emulate.

    Regardless of any of that, it's always a good idea to keep reference tracks in your DAW, and even occasionally trace over them with your instruments to make sure they sound correct. That can be another method for tuning dynamics as well, but sampled instruments often ramp in timbre and volume differently from that of a real instrument, often because of compression applied to the samples during recording.
     
    Sean Gosker likes this.
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  6. Hey Sean, I'm on the same quest as you (creating a truly balanced orch template).

    You might have some confusion about dynamics.

    CC1 (modwheel) controls crossfading between a piano and forte sample. The sample at forte will already naturally be louder.

    CC7 and CC11 are like additional volume knobs. The real orchestra doesn't have volume knobs. So if you're pushing those CCs in realtime, it's usually a mistake. If you are pushing CC1 and CC11 up at the same time, that's like you're recording a musician doing a crescendo, and then you're playing that performance back on a speaker that has its volume knob gradually turned up. The second part isn't adding to the realism, it isn't making the sound more strained or intense, it's just adding gain.

    So the first step in creating a template is getting to know your instruments. Just play an instrument in isolation and decide where on the modwheel that instrument is playing pp, mf, ff. Don't just assume that CC1 at 64 is mf because it's different for each VI developer...

    Then you can do a mockup. Picking a piece of music where you have the score and the recording and you can see what dynamics are indicated is a great idea so you're on absolutely the right track there.

    For now just focus on making each individual instrument's performance accurate to what's in the score, using CC1 appropriately, and don't worry about balance. If you're using multiple libraries from different developers the result will inevitably not work "out of the box." That's okay, just focus on each instrument.

    Once you have your instrument tracks the next step is to set CC7 levels. Do this with a "tag." A tag is a little MIDI region at the start of your template that doesn't contain any musical notes, it just sets the CC7 level (and any other directions for that track, like the keyswitch for that track's articulation). This is "set and forget" data that will be there at the start of every piece.

    As you do this, check back and forth with the real orchestra recording so that you get a good idea of what instruments need to be brought up or down.

    At this stage you'll also need to probably use a master reverb or other positioning software so that you get the right feeling of depth and panning across the orchestra. The woodwinds and brass are further back of course, and this affects their sound in multiple ways. To conceptualize this imagine an instrument sitting behind the cellos (like the trombones) and imagine them getting further and further away: the sound gets quieter, it also gets "wetter" (more reverb), funny stuff happens with EQ because of differential air absorption, and one of the most counterintuitive things is that the sound gets more mono and closer to the center. Because you can see that the angle between the orchestra's centerline and that instrument's seat gets narrower and narrower when the instrument sits further away.

    Anyway! The MAIN task here is setting CC7 appropriately. Once this task is completed, you now have a balanced VI orchestra. You don't need to touch CC7 ever again. The instruments are controlled entirely with CC1.

    This leaves CC11 aka "Expression." You should think of this as a "just in case" volume knob. I usually have it set at 127 on all my instruments, and then I only touch it if I want to lower an instrument's volume temporarily. Now I already said that the real orchestra does not have a volume knob, so why am I contradicting myself here? There are two special cases where CC11 comes in handy. First, many virtual instruments don't go to true niente like real ones. A real clarinet can go from piano to pianissimo to "the edge of silence." But when you're controlling virtual instruments, the bottom layer (CC1 at 1) just means a 100% mix of the lowest-dynamic layer that was sampled, usually piano. So to push this down, if I have a musical line that's decresc-ing to niente, I will lower CC11 in tandem with CC1 so that the final piano sounds really as quiet as it should. The second special case where CC11 comes in handy is if you are writing for strings divisi. If you synthestrate a divisi part by just using two of the same string patch, the result will sound too loud. So I like to dip my strings from CC11 = 127 down to CC11 = 64 when they're playing divisi. Use your ears to doublecheck that the result feels real when going back and forth from unison to divisi playing.

    Hope that was useful!
     
  7. Hi Noam,

    Wow thanks for the this advice its gold, now i see i was completely on the wrong track and like you said confused on dynamics. This is super detailed and just what i need. What i really find interesting is the number of different ways people go about
    balancing a template, no wonder its confusing to people when their are so many variations on how to do this, i'm also really happy that this thread is now on Redbanned purely because any novices like myself joining this forum will be able to access
    this thread easily rather than wading through hundreds of pages on VI, well that is until this site gets old;) Using CC11 this way is a revelation to me, in some cases iv'e seen people using CC1 in conjunction with CC11 to create dynamics when performing live parts. Its funny i think i just followed that ideology as standard way to create realistic parts. Watching Mikes video i was always confused why you never see him using CC11, so this makes more sense to me now.

    Cheers again for your advice Noam ;)
     
  8. Thanks again to everyone who chimed in with their time and experience its so helpful and great to see this community willing to extend their knowledge to beginners. This thread is a great resource for newbies coming to this forum, so i leave the floor open to anyone else who has a different approach as i feel newbies will benefit from the advice given.

    Thanks again guys
     
  9. Just a quick word on Expression, FWIW. Expression (CC11) is just a percentage of your Volume level (CC7). For example, if CC7 is set to max 100, then CC11 set at "127" will equal CC7 at "100."

    Hope that's helpful for your balancing efforts.

    -J
     
    Sean Gosker likes this.
  10. Thanks Jamie for adding to the thread, its much appreciated.
     

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