Variations on Debussy "Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum"

Don't think I can really offer anything, but have been meaning to have a listen to this, I'm intrigued. Will do so tomorrow!

 

Hey !

Nice stuff. I do like your piece. I was meaning to comment a few days ago and echo that about 90 % is the interpretation letting down the listener. It's not a knock on you, as a pianist, just as you said yourself

So that where the rub is. Yes, slowing down will help. But it still need "color" changes, and greater contrast in dynamics.

When I was a classical guitarist we had certain perpetual mobile kind of pieces to, and I would always try and color any arpeggio that is a repeat of itself. So the first ....lets say Gmi6, would be as normal, the second softer and ponticello.

Paul Barton is a wonderful piano player, and that harmonic pedal sounds amazing (I want one !!). That said I would like to a few other sources in addition. I would also listen to instruments other than piano

Lastly, since Alex brought up Liszt.......... listen to the same pianist as you posted play a piece by Liszt. You can dig through
the harmonies of Debussy and almost always find a melody kind of hidden that you can bring out in a way more like Liszt.
Less authentic, but I think that would give people something to really hang on to.

 

Such a great example.

I'm not sure if you're implying that Chopin is more technical than musical, but I think many of his preludes are fantastic examples of technicality and musicality not needing to be separate ideas. Chopin's etude here fulfills that criteria of being flowing and arpeggiated but dynamic enough to not become droning or irritating.

 

"I'm not sure if you're implying that Chopin is more technical than musical, but I think many of his preludes are fantastic examples of technicality and musicality not needing to be separate ideas. Chopin's etude here fulfills that criteria of being flowing and arpeggiated but dynamic enough to not become droning or irritating."
This was in reference to Francesco's post.

 

I think this is why piano is easy to begin, but difficult to master.

Ah, gotcha. I would agree with your assessment on a few of his pieces, but such is the nature of an etude, really.

So true about living or dying on performance though, and I think the responses here highlight the idea that it can be difficult, if not impossible, to separate performance (and therefore dynamics as a part of composition) from the actual music with a piece like this, aside from viewing it abstractly. I'll leave it to more experienced members to comment on the actual content of the melodies.

 

My first "real" orchestration teacher/mentor had us go thru each of the two Debussy Prelude books and orchestrate them.
His music, specifically his piano works, are very orchestral. (See post above with links.The two issues are connected)

No. My thought exactly. It makes the piece sound like a "Tourist" from another country with the digital.

You know..... I thought this was a really great point. When I read this I immediately knew you were right, and we can all get swayed by recordings.
Guilty as charged over here.

So, I printed up your score, and I also printed the version Debussy published. What's really nice actually is how both fit really well under the hands.
Sort of to your points.......... it just kind of feel nice to move the hand across the keys. (Aka idiomatic)


So I got some good news, and I have some bad news

Good news: You were 100% that reading the score reveals more, and everything is enjoyable to play. You have some really nice material/ideas in here.

Bad news: It's not 90% interpretation as I thought. The piece just has some flaws. It's in the music itself.
Most serious of which are foundational/structural issues.

I'll explain in detail below where/why I have this opinion, but first I want to bring up something else, because I think it might be a larger part of reason
the errors occurred.

I wonder with this statement. As an analogy this feels like watching an actor who is not fully submerged into the role being played.

Not sure if you recall, but last year I was commissioned to write a multi-movement quartet in homage to Debussy. Spent about 10 months listening to his
music, and investigating both his music and him as a person.

So, I have many dead bodies on the hill called "writing like Debussy". It's very easy to get stuck in a corner.

Let's begin looking deeper, and I start here:

Is this 100% true ? Not the first part (it is silly), but this

Debussy's Etudes are wonderful, and those for sure fit what you describe; he used them for his on technical development too.

This piece......hmm I'm skeptical about that. ( hang in there when reading. I know this may seem like a tangent, but I am also trying to say context matters,and can offer new ways to think about the composition you are writing.)

He wrote the piece when he was 44. It's apart of a larger work intended for children, which to me implies too it's well below his technical level. (it is)

To understand the satire, and the political/nationalistic motivations behind it his needs to be compared to his model.
Clementi's Etude #53

So this way we can see what Debussy began with and the patterns he would have sorted thru. Also we can sense of what that piece was about, and the degree of contrast Debussy added. What did he do, why did this choice get made and so on, and so on.

Now, I'm not saying go overboard with this. It's just something good to have floating in your mind to help evaluate your own work.

Let me go thru some examples with your piece:

So measures 1-5 are exactly the same as Debussy. Let's look at it


I think this is the most significant moment. The F to the E really has a "pull" to the sound. Additionally notice the B means we will have heard B-F-E (the B to F is a tritone - thats the dissonance that is resolving. There is also a very clear harmonic rhythm: C sonority for beats 1&2, Beats 3&4 not C. It's more vague but impressions of a few possible harmonies like F, Dmi7, B half diminished.

This whole opening is only about C major. Here is the melody, and how clear it set up going to the F maj in measure 7, and how it highlight the 3rd aspect of A. That the F to A maj. 3rd really gets felt.)




I am going thru this to show the first "structural" error happens here. The first 6 measures are about C major. That's a pretty good amount of time.

Now he is jumping over to "F" and give us a few more shifts - Fmi - to E etc.

The specific harmonies, and none of your materials are the issue; Don't go back to C major at 8 ! Look at the proportions between your work and his. Now.....you don't have to follow any chord recipe, but don't go back so soon !

Do you see in his there is sort of a 6 & 6 measure phrase. At measure 7 it has a 2-2-1-1 (or say 2-2-2 if you feel the last note is apart of the E)

You went more like 6 & .5

Next.... this is your variation on those previous measures. (I would most likely just move it to a later part of the piece. )

This is also unbalanced. From Measure 12 a F minor feel really take hold, and the thing is you are heading towards F at 16. So F to F
just does not have the same "pull". Debussy avoids any of this in his piece.

Perhaps a bass note change would be all that is needed.

Then we get the F maj to Fmin from Debussy,....... so now it feels long.


I gotta cut this off, sad to say as I need to run. Will be happy to explain more if you wish

Doug

 

Goodness, I need to dedicate an hour to reading your posts. None of this casual reading. These are lessons in themselves, and glossing over them is robbing myself. Not trying to blow smoke, more just a roundabout way of saying thank you for your continued thoroughness.

 

In case actual music is clearer than words; I made a little sketch that is a combination of both yours, and Debussy's.

I took your return to idea 1 before going on. The only difference is now it's in a new mode, and follows a similar move to what you were exploring withF minor.
Then, as I mentioned above F to F is not a strong pull, so I made the first set of big arpeggios Db.
(Recall how I circled the F to E ? That was a min 2nd pull down. Now for the "B" idea, the bass is moving from C to Db -- min 2nd up. I am just using what was already there, but maybe not noticed. This helps things feel both connected and flow)

I added in another repetition of ideas 1 and 2 (measures 1-10) and now it's in a descending manner.
Now it's 22 measures instead of 12. The thing that helps is keeping the proportions, and to think about the structure and how it's organized.
That's more important.

All of your material is very good, it's just organized oddly. Notice too, I never return to C in this example. I can save it for later in the work.

Anyhow.....hope this is of some use.

 

Thanks for posting and for the responses, I learned a lot (and had a lot reinforced) through this!

 

Audio book, arranged as sonnets, and accompanied by Elizabethan era lutes.