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How to Mix Timpani/Bass Drum

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. #1 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Jan 13, 2019
    Hi Mixers,

    It seems my only trouble when mixing a percussion section is how impactful my Timpani and Bass Drums are. No matter what, my Timpani always have that resonant effect. Especially when they are way in the back, they tend to be wetter than most sections, which makes it hard for them to be impactful and close to your face.

    Here is a reference track -- just listen to the epic roll:


    It sounds glorious, yet comfortable to the ear!

    Not only the Timpani, but the Bass Drum seems to play as an empty bass, but doesn't quit have that beat you wanted for the extra tension. I don't get to have that "Dom" effect from the Bass Drum.

    This example showcases the Bass Drum at it's best -- just listen how strong the "Dom" is when they hit the first beat repeatedly:


    Best,
    Abdulrahman
     
  2. #2 Blake Robinson, Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    One of the main reasons these bass drums come through so nicely is because appropriate room has been left for them. Nothing else is fighting for that very low frequency space. The tonal bass elements are obviously there, but their balance is so low in comparison that the bass drum still has plenty of room for impact, especially in that region below 60hz

    The types of "impact" that the timpani and the bass drum have are both very different. The bass drum has an impact that is more "felt", whereas the timpani is more like a "roar".

    This difference in impact/sound requires a different approach. It may seem counter intuitive, but one of the biggest problems with most timpani samples is that the low mid/bass information is far too prominent, which causes a few issues. Firstly, rather than sounding powerful, they instead sound muddy and full of overwhelming resonance. Timpani's don't need a lot of these frequencies, they aren't meant to be "felt", we want them to roar! Secondly, these overwhelming low mid frequencies also overtake the whole mix, leaving no room for other elements, like the bass drum etc. If you listen carefully to the timpani in your first example (and most other great mixes), you'll hear that it doesn't have all that much low frequency information at all!

    Good luck!
     
    Mike Worth, George Streicher, Mark Stothard and 4 others like this.
  3. #3 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Jan 14, 2019
    Indeed. So what do you suggest to solve this?
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  4. #4 George Streicher, Jan 17, 2019
    Could this also be a mic mixing issue? I find that I like a dry-er / closer mix to my timpani and Bass Drum. That way they get that sharper sound to them. Obvious, orchestration is the biggest part of getting instruments to cut through, but I assume mic-ing is also something to consider if you want a tighter or more room-y sound.
     
  5. #5 Alexander Schiborr, Jan 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
    Oh this is like what read quite often and I can understand that question very good. I mix the timpani and bassdrum with close, decca, and a bit of ambient micings (like with a spitfire timpani and bassdrum). I mean it depends always on the "source". So there is no generalisation with that. But I try to keep a balance between ambience which makes the sound bigger because of the resonance which especially bigger instruments have with the room and the drier settings which gives a bit bite and edge to the sound. In my opinion, the difficulty is to balance the right volume of the those 2 instruments and they need to be dead on spot. If you mix them too loud they overpower the orchestra and fill too much the lowend, if too low you loose impact. So the first thing you should ask yourself: How loud really are this 2 dudes in comparison to the rest. My tip: Listen very carefully to orchestral recordings which are similiar in settings to your mockup. There is also..which is like a personal choice but I like those instruments to be mixed pretty loud maybe I mix them a bit too loud sometimes but that is my personal choice because I like it when they come in that they really hit you.

    When orchestrating, I have a technique where I play not everything together which means, lets say you have crescendo with brass and then come that big short moment where everything is loud and timpani or bassdrum is hitting the first beat, move them either a bit before the beat or a little after, so that not every low instruments has their maximum attack at the same time which helps first to cut through better and it sounds also better because how to say it: It is bigger from the sound.

    Sure there are also techniques like compression and eq, though I say the following: When orchestration and balance is on spot, there is nothing much to compress or to eq imo.

    Blakus said also something right in that regards. I think that applies not only to those percussion but to other instruments too. I think it has to do with the sterile sampling recording and that also absorbers are missing in the session and also that there is this point when the orchestra is playing together in real life the whole room reacts differently because the instruements are played there at the same time which causes different sonic reactions and interactions with the players and with the room. I try to emulate this shit but man..its getting me often a headdache..
     
    Abdulrahman Al-Othman, George Streicher and Dillon DeRosa like this.
  6. #6 Alexander Schiborr, Jan 17, 2019


    skip to 1:40 min, thats how I mix the timpani / Bassdrum. I use here Spitfire Timp and Bassdrum (all micings like explained before), and sometimes I use from Hollywood Percussion another one for specific more meaty faster things, but actually not in that short snippet.
     
    George Streicher, Martin Hoffmann and Dillon DeRosa like this.
  7. #7 Noah Horowitz, Jan 20, 2019
    I generally like to bring down the release on timpani samples. I find it makes the sound more crisp and punchy and is preferable to using a compressor.
     
    Abdulrahman Al-Othman, George Streicher and Alexander Schiborr like this.
  8. #8 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Jan 24, 2019
    You know I never tried playing with the built-in settings of the Timpani. I own CinePerc, btw and I have never used comp in all my life. It do more harm than good.
     
  9. #9 Alexander Schiborr, Jan 24, 2019
    You should! And not only with the timps, but with every patch available.
     
  10. #10 Abdulrahman Al-Othman, Jan 24, 2019
    I do use it with string sustain for a smoother transition between the notes.
     
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