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Themed out

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by JP Beveraggi, Jan 15, 2019.

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  1. #1 JP Beveraggi, Jan 15, 2019
    Hello,

    My understanding is that a theme needs to hammer down a pattern pretty strongly to be memorable. My problem is that I always feel like I am hammering it down too much and struggle to see when I over do it. Is there a general test I can apply to my compositions to ensure the right balance between focus and diversity?

    You could use my piece below to illustrate your point:



    Thanks for your help
     
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  2. #2 John Eldridge, Jan 16, 2019
    Hi, JP. Firstly, welcome to the forum!

    Your question cuts right to the heart of my own struggle as well. So while I can't offer an immediate solution, I can say you're not alone. The essence of the way forward though is to take an idea you have, reduce it to the simplest form that still maintains the essence and then use that as a basis for richer development such that the hammering down of a pattern doesn't require verbatim restatements. By that approach, you gain freedom to keep reinforcing the patterns present in the idea and yet keeping it continually fresh.

    Mike covers material relevant to this in some of his masterclasses. Composition 1 and 2, Mod Squad, Structure are probably the most likely to be helpful for this.

    Be sure to check this video for a bit of the motivation for focusing on development of an idea.


    Related


    With respect to your sample, I think it's got a pretty good basis for development. It's got a clear 8-bar package within which you have a 4-bar phrase that repeats, so you have a fairly crisp definition of the root idea already.

    The sample piece certainly didn't overdo it in my opinion. At the close of the piece, as the B section was wrapping, I was ready to hear developments on the A section statement.

    Best wishes,
    John
     
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  3. #3 Rohann van Rensburg, Jan 16, 2019
    Think you're nailing the balance here. There's some internal repetition, as John mentioned, which keeps me anchored, but the initial idea is longer and as such can use repetition. Felt like a satisfying transition from A to B, and I'm on the same page as John -- I was ready to hear A developing.

    I struggle with this because I really work at the initial idea for so long that I get tired of it, but it's important to find that balance for an audience that has never heard it. What's helped me, for reference, comes back down to transcription. You don't have to go transcribing all such pieces, but even finding pieces with a similar structure and paying attention to how long the ideas are and how many repeats are involved is quite helpful. It often seems about 2 for an idea as long as yours with some internal repetition, sometimes 4 for shorter ideas or those that move around.
     
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  4. #4 Andrew Christie, Jan 16, 2019
    Hi JP. Welcome!

    Both comments above are great. I have nothing much to add other than I really dug your snippet. I would love to hear a fully fleshed out arrangement of it because you clearly have a strong melodic sensibility and would love to hear where it goes.
     
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  5. #5 Alexander Schiborr, Jan 16, 2019
    That depends very often on the complexity of the current theme. I would say the following: The easier or simpler the motif is the earlier you should move on with your idea. So more difficult it is to grasp the longer you to explain what you are saying. So what is simple or easy, well that is for instance a melody which is carried by a very simple chord progression which is very relatable and heard millions of times before, in your case I would say it would apply as well, so my advice: Do it twice but then move on and do a b - section. So what is easy or simple is also a thing of personal level in mussicanship because it might be simple for Person A , but maybe you think that this is very sophisticated still so you feel to hang on more on that theme before going other places.

    In general the more familirized chord progressions you do, like I-IV-V ,or I-V, I-V thing the more chances are there that you might move on with your idea either doing a b section or using modulation techniques in order to keep the idea interesting. Its not always like that, because you can even have one chord hanging and your melody starts simple but your are going over time more and more other places just with the melody. You know..you can play c major and your melody is always safe by outlining chord tones and you play diatonic notes all the time or you start to add little tensions over time which then creates new "sides" of your melody and adds bite to it, therefore you can hang on one chord a longer time when you able to go more out of your comfort zone.

    Maybe an idea for you is to write little AABA tracks and transcribe pieces which follow that structure because you can learn a lot from their approach.
     
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  6. #6 JP Beveraggi, Jan 16, 2019
    Thank you for the welcome and advice John. I am already subscribed to some of these courses, I will take a look at the others you mention and the videos.

    Thank you for the pointers Rohann, setting a template structure based on similar pieces sounds like a good idea. My cheap trick to keep some perspective at composing stage is to work on a passage with a time limit. When the buzzer rings, I put it aside and move to another piece. It is however clearly a luxury if you work with a submission deadline.

    Thank you for the encouragement Andrew, I actually wrote this theme with a duration constraint. I found myself adding modulation 30 seconds in because of the repetitive structure of the phrase so making it a full blown coherent track would be a great challenge. I should revisit it and see how far I can take it. Good idea.
     
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  7. #7 JP Beveraggi, Jan 16, 2019
    Thank you for the advice Alexander. Defining the complexity of a phrase should be straightforward for me. Having a very unsophisticated musical ear, I think most of the ideas I will come up with will fall into the "simple" category. :)
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  8. #8 Alexander Schiborr, Jan 16, 2019
    Always a pleasure. And don´t get to hard with it: Simple is good. The art is to know when to move on because of the simplicity. Just keep on practising, mate.
     
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  9. #9 Rohann van Rensburg, Jan 16, 2019
    I think another element of repetition comes down to the length of an idea. If an idea is very simple and manages to be long, people will tire of it quickly. If it's short, however, you can usually get away with more repeats.

    I.e. Here (hardly a simple structure but it still serves the point well enough). Quite a few repeats with minor variations and harmony being added, but the nature of the idea is that it is simple and short. Your idea wasn't "difficult" or overly complex, but it was longer and so I found the two repetitions to feel like "enough".
     
  10. #10 JP Beveraggi, Jan 17, 2019
    I see what you mean. Lux Aeterna by Clint Mansell is another example with a permanent 3-note bass line.
     
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