1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. You're only as good as the harshest criticism you're willing to hear.
    Dismiss Notice

How the hell do you write like this?

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by George Streicher, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. #1 George Streicher, Dec 8, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
    How. The hell. Do you approach writing a high energy, flourish-y, roller coaster-y and driving piece like these?

    Any tips? Experience? Insights? Learnings?





     
  2. Which one, the one that develops or the monotonous droning one?
     
    Kit Karlson and George Streicher like this.
  3. Definitely more interested in the Williams Jurassic cue
     
  4. The real answer is that in order to be able to weave really complex, multi-parenthetical sentences which are entertaining and not off-putting, you have to be absolutely aware of, and in control of, your level of communication connection with the listener at all times. You have to be aware of a hundred variables - which change with every sentence - and leave nothing to chance. To do this, begin by practicing saying complex, interesting ideas in the simplest, most efficient way possible. "A rolling stone gathers no moss"; says much in few words. Of course, primary is the philosophy; the idea; the sentiment - stagnation versus ambition; maybe even living versus dying. Big, interesting stuff, presented in such a simple, and poetic, and efficient style. While practicing absolute efficiency in style, steep yourself in the widest range of literature possible to learn new vocabulary words and word structure. You can not possibly read enough; and don't just read - recite and imitate. The difference between complexity and chaos is control; intent. Start simple, and black out the next 30 years or so to practice.
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  5. Thanks, Mike! Always extremely encouraging and insightful. I keep having to remind myself to keep it simple and clear.

    Will re-post in 30 years!
     
  6. Repost in 30 hours.
     
  7. On it.
     
    David Healey likes this.
  8. Question: Did you master regular thematic writing? the question is anyways a bit rethoric. I mean..its always good to have challenges and there is nothing wrong transcribing also his swirly action cues. Still I think he did that at a point where he was already writing over decades music and mastered his more melodic lets call "conventional" writing. To get there..or better somewhere there is maybe impossible because we all don´t have his kind of school he went through and people he was working with also. Maybe one approach in learning that could be really reproducing bars of this action cues and learning devices, also orchestrational devices. I have a good friend who is pretty keen on doing those kind of cues and he tries to analyze the harmonic language and he reproduces "clones" of it which are utilizing techniques from williams. But man..before I do something like that, I better make sure that my simple compositions are cohesive and develope and utilize a sophisticated harmonic language. Maybe you first concentrate on that more.
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  9. #9 George Streicher, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
    A daunting task, indeed! But a fascinating one. I guess I'm just mostly wondering what the mechanics of it are and what he's doing. I have no delusions of there being some easy answer, but I'm mostly curious how one would approach writing something like that and what devices are used. Where could one look to further study this style of writing?

    We've all had to write an action cue at some point, so I'm just curious how some of you would approach writing something so fast paced and not just falling back on the modern method of endless ostinatos. Just curious to see how some of you out there tackle an action cue.
     
  10. Just as an observer (having watched hours of Unleashed and being a spectator to the pieces people post for critique), the problem with trying to apply a reductionistic approach to writing like that is that it reduces the complexity of this writing down to "devices" or idioms, which misses the point of Williams' writing (this reductionistic approach misses the "point" of most things, for the record). I'm mostly parroting here, but I absolutely believe it and it becomes obvious when you know what to listen for: Williams approaches action cues just like other cues, in that there must be an inherent sense of internal cohesion, cogent phrases developing and informing one another to form full musical "sentences", and an inherent direction in the music that not only tells the story but also suggests and implies things within the narrative beyond what's simply on screen. People write ostinatos because it's really, really easy. You don't have to be a composer to write ostinatos and brass farts. Modern action cues don't develop, they just get louder and play the additive game to get them through a scene. Once I realized this I find modern cues almost unbearable in how frustrating they are. How Williams, and the greats he learned and stole from, write, is simply a byproduct of the inherent structure common to most forms of narrative.

    I've accepted that I probably won't write with this degree of sophistication in my lifetime. But that's okay, because I want to write music that I like and am satisfied with. I trust my taste as I continue to develop it, and there are a good deal of examples to learn from that shave out a great deal of the sophistication in favour of retaining the same sense of structure and interest in a more basic manner.
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  11. Arigato for the satoru Sensei.

    George: Can I ask the obvious question: Why don't you give it a shot (as a piano reduction first) and post it here ?

    I am out of town at the moment, but about 13 (sigh) years ago I spent two-three hours with Christopher Young at his studio talking about this one topic alone.
    I will try and dig up my notes, and see what score examples I can post. Here are some points from memory.

    No need to compose the whole thing from left to right. Yes, get your spark/inspiration/kernal from the opening. What is most important is to work out where the ultimate high point is and work backwards. Most common mistake is to give away too much too early.
    If you are already at 9.5 you have no where to go (unless you join Spinal Tap)

    Part B of the above point is long action cues require sleight of hand like a magician doing a card trick. Meaning you have to be discarding layers as you go so you have some powder left in your gun for the end, and also to avoid monotony.

    Make your ostinato's as melodic as you can.

    Always "Push" the music forward. This is often the cliche brass/cymbal/percussion swells, and harp glisses, woodwind/string runs etc.
    (you are not confined to those, I am just trying to be clear on what I am talking about. These are more decorations than structurally important)

    Flipping the music so what was on top can go on the bottom (and vice versa) is useful way to avoid too much literal repetition.
    Hence why having a melodic ostinato to begin with is useful
     
  12. I attended two summer programs with Christopher Young (the last two summers), and I can confirm he has thought about this topic for a really long time and he has taught some very nice practical tips. Everything Doug said is extremely useful and correct, and I wanna expand on it a bit. I'm gonna be paraphrasing a bit:

    Chris really emphasizes the importance of ostinatos, because there is no need to get caught up in the actual notes on your first pass through an action scene. The number one factor is to hype the scene up and give it energy, and the easiest way to do it is through a (rhythmic) ostinato; it's useful to have a constant pulse through the action sequences that ties the narrative together. Of course, having only one constant pulse throughout the whole sequence would be rather boring, so an easy fix is to have multiple rhythmical patterns that can be used cyclically (like in a song form - AABABC etc.).

    He really stresses the importance of rhythm, to the point where one of his favourite exercises (and one technique he uses himself) is to look a the scene and finding a good ostinato rhythm by literally banging his fists on the piano. This way you have an instant feedback if the tempo is the correct one, and if the rhythmical idea holds the scene together; moreover, you don't really have time to get lost into thinking about all the notes, so you free yourself from potentially harmful inhibitions. Once you have found the tempo, the ostinatos, the accents that you have to catch in the scene, etc. - then you can worry about the melodic ideas and the flourishes. The main point is to never ever lose the energy - the pulse, which is all the directors care about in these sequences.

    You can really see this kind of thinking in action in some of the soundtracks he scored, and a couple of examples come to mind:


    On the second example it's very instructional to look at these two different takes on the same scene, and you can probably agree that Chris' version is more rhythmically coherent, and way more based on ostinatos than Elfman's version. I'm not gonna make a judgement of which version is better or fits the scene better, but you can clearly see how their approaches slightly differ.

    Lastly, I find that his approach is also different from William's approach, which is way more melodic and less based on actual ostinatos. The way he drives the scenes home is usually through developing motivic (melodic) figures.

    On the other hand, I think that Chris composes more with a mindset of a "drummer" (which makes sense, since he started as a drummer), starting from a "groove".

    ===============================================================================================

    Regardless of what I think of these different cues, Chris' approach is extremely practical, and will get you to score actions scenes in no time. We're not trying to recreate The Battle of Yavin at our first try, so I find very valuable practicing this way; it will improve your sensibility towards keeping the energy going and not worrying too much about the individual notes of some unimportant woodwind run.

    Bang your fists on the piano! Find your ostinatos! :D
     
  13. I did an entire masterclass on action scenes; could've probably done two, but almost without exception, the pulse/rhythm is literally in the frame - if it's a well constructed sequence, anyway. It's in the shot speed, motion of action, motion through the frame, rate of information delivery. Scoring is always best when it's built from the elements in the frame, not just supporting from underneath. But as Rohann correctly said, none of the great music is a collection of "devices." You can learn Williams "devices," in a bout 2 weekends, and be left with absolutely nothing - it's like learning vocabulary words but having no idea what they mean or when you'd use them. You know what people look like when they use large words totally incorrectly? It's precisely the same when composers try to use "devices," they saw on YouTube or read in a score. The what is easy, the why is what matters.

    The OP's question is: "I saw Penn Jillette juggle 15 different items at once; pins, a toaster, two shirts, a baseball, a Rubik's cube... all this shit. It was crazy. They all weigh different amounts and fall at different rates. How does one do that?" What do you think the advice would be? It'd be what you've been given: learn to juggle 3 simple balls expertly first. You'll never get to the Penn version without it.
     
  14. I very much agree with what you say here, and your "action scenes" masterclass was eye opening on that regard. However, I still think that there might be some value in what Christopher Young teaches. I do believe that there are some good practical suggestions there.

    Especially for this:
    Like any other thing, it's easy to spot once you know what to look for, but it needs to be practiced. It's literally the most basic thing you have to nail in an action sequence, but it's not automatically trivial. You had years of experience scoring for such scenes, as well as editing/directing them; however, the first few times that I've tried to find a sequence's tempo, I've miserably failed, because I needed to develop a sense for the pacing and the cuts.

    I still think that the "banging on the piano" (or on the table) exercise is a good advice for developing a rhythmical sense through trial and error.
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  15. #15 George Streicher, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
    Loved your action masterclass! it really helped me spot and break down actions scenes I've had to score in the past. There really is no other way to learn than just doing it, so I'll just keep trying and trying until something clicks

    I'd love it if you did another action scene class and maybe scored a short action scene. It'd be really fun and eyeopening to see someone else do it, especially in your style! I'm always looking for different perspectives on things as I tend to work myself into a corner with action writing.

    I was listening to an old favorite of mine from "Last Crusade" and I think this is something for me to look more closely at. It feels a little less intimidating than the JP cue, as I feel I'm able to break this one down a little further and dissect it's structure:



    I'm trying to approach writing action music the way Mike encourages us to write anything else - with a focus on structure, patterns and development. I guess I just get intimidated by the "fast stuff" - just gotta slow it down and pick my moves carefully

    Thanks for all the replies!
     
  16. When it comes to Last Crusade - or any of the Raiders music - you must absolutely remember that large chunks of it are deliberately self-aware, 4th-wall breaking nostalgia winks to a certain age group and peoples. If you're analyzing a speech and it's full of sly Monty Python inside jokes and don't realize it, certain sections of that speech might seem totally non-sequitir or ill-fits. And if you then tried incorporating that into your own speeches, you'd be generating nonsense. Those things only make sense in very specific contexts for very specific reasons, for very specific audiences. This is 100% true for music. There are many things in the Raiders music which are deliberately uncool - they're just masterfully inserted so as to give a goose to the right people, and go basically unnoticed by everyone else. But it's our job to notice, and so we must notice what they are in total, which is more than a device - they're never free of context.

    And don't forget- Jurassic Park was more or less tossed off. Both Williams and Spielberg's brains were in Schindler's List. JP contains a lot of what Williams experts should instantly recognize as his version of treading water/killing time. He did absolute fuck tons of that in the Star Wars prequels, and sort of has ever since, which is why an action scene from Phantom Menace is, structurally, nowhere near the level of one in Star Wars or Empire. You can sing the entirety of an Empire cue; you can basically not sing more than a figure from that scene where the fuckin flying car is spasming all around the skyscrapers in Phantom. Practically not even the same guy, musically. It's all relative, but you gotta keep this all in context to make sense of it.
     
  17. Great insight - thanks, Mike!
     
  18. Speaking of "The Last Crusade" ;)

     
  19. I won't pretend to speak for anyone here, but I think "What practical advice can I use to begin writing action cues?" is a different question than "How do I write an action cue like John Williams?", in the sense of looking for "tricks". The examples you posted may not be at the sophistication level of Williams, but they sound incomparably more interesting than your average AAA action cue. "Ostinato" has become a four-letter word in my mind, but purely because of how it's been relentlessly abused. I like the variation in approaches from primarily rhythmic, to somewhere in between with Elfman; thanks for sharing!
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  20. Speaking of context - this the orchestration for "Marching Band outside in a crowd of screaming people." Everybody plays.
     

Share This Page