1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. You're only as good as the harshest criticism you're willing to hear.
    Dismiss Notice

Lorne Balfe's "Mission: Impossible - Fallout" Score

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Andrew Scott Mayer, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. #1 Andrew Scott Mayer, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    - I've never made a thread on here so I don't know if this is the best place for this -

    Following the early release of Lorne Balfe's "Mission: Impossible - Fallout" Score, the last several days have brought up a legitimate criticism & the question:
    "Does the Mission: Impossible - Fallout score sound like the final product was performed mostly or entirely using samples?"

    For Context:
    This was a pole that was started on a soundtrack fan page on twitter that quickly flew out of control when the composer was tagged in a post
    After putting myself through one of the worst soundtrack listening experiences in recent memory, my initial response was DUH! As you my notice, I'm no fan of this score (especially on a compositional level) but this was more a matter of principle. Regardless as to whether Balfe used a live orchestra (which he did btw), what I was hearing sounded artificial to the bone. FYI I'm somebody who up until more recently has tried to just keep quiet on controversial statements regarding anothers work; however, after some of the idiotic comments & responses (towards me and the creator of the thread) something in me just snapped.
    From what I've learned through the varies Mike Verta Masterclasses and lesions about: composition, orchestration, mixing, & sample libraries, this response came out of me...
    "It's not a realistic sound that can be produced by real players! The source of what you're hearing is in additional plugins, all after effects. If someone made a "Good" Midi Mockup, it would sound 90% the same by comparison. I don't think you're realizing what we're saying." My response was addressing the mixing as well as the original question "Does the Mission: Impossible - Fallout score sound like the final product was performed mostly or entirely using samples?"

    Response from composer Balfe:
    "I would be interested to hear these demos . Unfortunately it is actually possible to produce that sound. Over the next couple of weeks I will be sharing some videos of the sessions so you can experience it as well as learn different techniques."

    My intent of this thread is not meant to hate on composer Balfe as I have enjoyed several of his other scores like "Beyond: Two Souls" but after what I've went through trying to explain my points I'd like to know everyone else's opinion on the matter. Is what I'm hearing even realistically possible without the original sound being tampered with?

    Link to Balfe's full score:


    Thank You!
    Would really appreciate everyone else's input!
     
    Dillon DeRosa likes this.


  2. These are live players though probably with samples mixed in about 20%.. but honestly these live players were brutally tortured musically in my opinion. They were not only striped down to sections but even worse... striped down from long notes vs short notes. Yes, I'm serious about that. The whole thing was recorded like it was a sample library thus it sounds fake and unmusical. They used something absurd like 12 horns, 12 tbns, I think 8 bass tbns, 2 tubas, 4 tpts and a tenor (or alto) saxophone.. Something huge for the brass section as you can see in the video.
     
    George Streicher likes this.
  3. This and all such discussions can be distilled to an essential truth:

    For more than 100 years, masterful composers using plain 'ol orchestras have created pieces which transcend the boundaries of time and transform people's lives. They remain cherished and inspiring, discovered anew as only masterworks can be.

    This will not be said about virtually any of the work being produced today, because it is neither masterful nor natural. All of these approaches make the playing musicians absolutely miserable; it's the antithesis of what they got into music for, and an offense to the communal, synergistic beauty of playing music together. They fucking hate it. And what's all this in service of? The product is forgettable noise, forcibly birthed at the expense of joy and musicianship - full of sound and fury; signifying nothing, as the man said.

    I would rather die an anonymous, failed master than a wealthy noise-smith. But to each his own.
     
  4. #4 Alexander Schiborr, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    Same old discussions about modern blockbuster soundtracks. I couldn´t make it through the whole soundtrack here. It is a very typical approach for the genre I would say. Nothing really sticks to my ear that much. Very boring as a stand alone listening experience for me. Lowbrass pads and swells all over the place, taikos, and Strings playing like a rock guitarrist plays powerchords all the time. Sure it may fit the picture and works for the movie I guess. These things are very often in blockbuster movie these days. I mean honestly: What to expect here? Lorne Balfe is a co-composer and ghostwriter for Zimmer. His turn on the maintheme at 21 minutes speaks a clear language. His manerism are all about those "big sounds", and loud screaming orchestra at the top of their lungs layered with samples or whatever. Matter of taste..I think if you like Zimmer and that stuff, probably you will cherish that kind of soundtracks. So this is same old same story therefore for me. But I don´t pass the buck to Lorne Balfe because that is what the studios want him to do and when he doesn´t another one is doing the Gig. So I think you can´t blame somebody like him just fullfilling and doing his job there. Maybe he doesn´t like the stuff he did there but he is doing it because of course it is tempting to get a big gig like that for his career. Not that he had no career prior that, of course not but you know how that is? People once get a bit of the big cake they have harder times to resist and to say: You know what I stop working for this machinery and do indy stuff.
     
    Paul T McGraw likes this.
  5. Challenge accepted! Since I was mainly drawn to making music by composers you guys don't like much, I might even enjoy it. ^_^


    But I find it always very educational to see what you guys think is "bad". I feel like those examples (also in Mike's Videos) make things click more easily for me than just the positive examples alone. So, thanks for sharing!
     
  6. #6 Alexander Schiborr, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    Let me clarify: I don´t say it is a bad soundtrack. It is just not what my personal taste is. Its probably for other people a very good soundtrack. The term "bad" is for me the wrong word for such things. Is it really bad? I mean..there are many good points regarding sound, intensity, mixing wise etc. I think it is well done, though it doesn´t match my own asthetics that much. I mean what is bad. For me this soundtrack just doesn´t utilizes the things which orchestral music makes it great for my own taste which this lacks of:

    1. No cool melodic material which get stuck into my brain
    2. No cool modulations
    3. No sophosticated harmony
    4. No use of the whole palette of orchestrational colors and presets
    5. No use of dynamic variations
    6. No use of much different articulations
    7. No motivic developement at all
    8. No usage of any kind of couterpoint.

    But it is not a bad soundtrack because it dosn´t feature that points because it is not intended to sound like the charming old times. But that is not the goal here. I don´t know Balfes background is and I don´t know any of his other works, so my points just are focussed on this one soundtrack here and maybe he is able to pull of other styles which I dig more, but who knows..Is Lorne Balfe a bad composer? I would say not at all, but he does what the studios want him to do and thats his job. He gets his probably very nice paycheck and the rest doesn´t matter. Period. If you want to work there with that blockbuster stuff, you have to make that sound otherwise, go home. :D:p
     
  7. Agreed, that's why I put "bad" in quotation marks. I thought I know a bunch of his game soundtracks, but I seem to have confused him with Jeremy Soule. He did work with Zimmer on the COD:MW2 soundtrack though, which is probably my favorite in the series. Also has done some work on the Crysis 2 soundtrack, which is another one of my favorite game soundtracks.

    But yeah, listening to the Mission Impossible soundtrack on its own gets a bit monotone even for me. I could see myself liking it as a movie soundtrack though. Maybe I'll quote this post in a few years when it has hit Netflix and I've finally seen it ;).
     
  8. #8 Alexander Schiborr, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    You know my intent is here not to smash Balfes work, because thats the point: Why blame sombody who just does his job there in hollywood. I tell you that a lot of people would jump on that train when they throw many dollars at you. In the end its a job. I just checked out other works of Balfe and they are more or less all of the same ingridients what that Zimmer sound is typical for. No wonder why he worked for him in the past. He is one of the many Zimmer childs. From a pure business aspect, he does everything right.
     
    Martin Hoffmann likes this.
  9. Curious how many of you guys would decline such an offer if e.g. Warner or universal came around and would asked you to score the next super hero movie? If the paycheck is a bigger 6 digit number, I bet my pants that 99 percent would do it, make a shitty soundtrack what they probably hate but go home with a smile and say: Fuck it anyways and buy some cool gear and a nice car. lol!
     
  10. I wouldn't be up to the task because I'm a beginner without any experience for scoring movies, so naturally I would decline because I would crash and burn with such a job and scoring movies sounds terribly stressful even for people who know what they're doing.
    But if it was a (non music) task that I could do without burning out on the stress I'd totally do it. I've always considered myself as a craftsman and not an artist.
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  11. I'd do it. If it pays more than well, do a gig like that every now and then so you can afford to do other gigs you like more for less money, which would otherwise not be enough for you. There's no shortage of directors who'd love for you to compose quality orchestral music for their movie and to pay you in McDonalds coupons.

    If you're doing it for that kind of a deal, then maybe you can negotiate more power over music direction and enjoy your '80s filmscoring fantasy :D
     
  12. Yeah, exactly. To be honest: I would do a couple of those shitgigs and take the money and then I would be much more independent and have more freedom and choices therefore. I guess thats with other people working there too. Thank you for the comment, Aaron.
     
  13. #13 Alexander Schiborr, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    But not that someone thinks here I am labeling hollywood gigs per se as shitgigs, I just mean by that: When you work there for blockbuster franchise, you have not that much to say and do what they want you to do and that is for me a shitgig because I think when producers dictates too much stylistic choices which would be the job of the composer, so the artist becomes stiff and uncomfortable and probably but that is my guess probably he is not able to show his best performance. I remember doing of course not hollywood but a medium gig and they wanted me to do this 3/4 meter dance track. And they gave me a temptrack (btw..I had most of the time to copy temptracks), having said that: I copied the temptrack and my piece was a shitpiece but close enough to the original but far enough not to step into legal shit. And then they cam: Ah its too slow alex, so I speeded the track up. And they said: too slow..I finally I think I started on tempo 135 with 3/4 beat and ended up on 185 or some shit like that because they told me so. The endresult was a major fucking bullshit shit and I hated the track and still do and they liked it. THe track sounded like the duracell bunny on crack. :D Now..they want that shit and I didn´t - I thought that it was total douche. When people hear that track they think probably: Wow, the composer was really a douche. But behind the curtain of night that happens. I remember the blakus guy posted a starwars trailer track for battlefront or something in ViC. And man the guy is nice, the musictrailer was done pretty cool for a modern trailer approach and the producers told him: We need more attack in the taikos, more aggression. So I read that he started to layer like a madman all this kinds of additional stuff, just that every drum sounds like Explosion..man, this producers are insane..they have no musical sense, they are fucking douchebags imo and its often not the composers fault that a soundtrack sounds like a loveless trashcan. Imo there are nowadays in hollywood the wrong people with no sense for music but they dictate that and thats also a reason why we hear so much shit these days.
     
  14. Now I kind of want to hear that! :D

    I bet every freelancer in every creative field has such stories. Sad, but comes with the territory.
     
  15. Ha, I like your style Alexander. I have been out in the trenches for a couple of years and every once in a while poked my head in ViC and here in RedBanned after Mike created it. I don't think anybody here thinks Hollywood gigs are shitgigs in the literal sense. The thing is those are just gigs, you are hired to do a job and your job is to do what you were hired to do. I feel your pain when making the 185 3/4 thing, I have done my share of shitty gigs, nevertheless, you were paid for it so you had to do it, and that's it. That is the tacit agreement behind landing a gig. No one hires you to be an artist, no one cares about that. Media music is ancillary to visuals and that is what they are selling. It's a different thing altogether to being someone of notice and getting a call because someone wants "you" to score their project, because then "you" are part of the package they are selling. Very few people remain at that level today.

    Think about this, if you were a baron or a heir to a fortune that made it unnecessary for you to work to pay the bills: What would you do? Would you put yourself through the same shitgig ladder slowly making a name for yourself in hopes that the ubiquitous window of artistry embedded in each gig slowly grows larger and larger so that eventually you are given enough leeway to really express yourself in tandem with the fantastic project you are finally working in, with all this fantastic people at the top of their game? Would you still do it this way? Or Would you rather fund projects and then pick and choose the interesting ones to do yourself? You know if the project is right, recognition and fame will come after it, and you know recognition and fame have nothing to do with being a true artist and genius composer. It's akin to being neighbour to a well known agent, and him getting you under his wing while you are young, you will have jumped over the herd and will be placed in positions where your name will become a household name pretty fast, but you'll still be a green stem, years before you can really develop a unique artistic viewpoint and have anything worthy to say musically, hell, if your agent is good he might even get you to co-compose big AAA films with veteran composers, instantly leveling up your market value... Being a true artist is something you are born being, and becoming a genius composer is something you develop into. None of which have anything to do with being successful.

    I once saw an interview on YT with Jerry Goldsmith where he closed by saying that in order to become successful (I am paraphrasing here) you either were born rich, or you married a rich woman, or you worked your ass off. Working your ass off means doing everything, and not in the "oh he's so versatile, he can do everything" way, more in a "do everything you are handed to do, even that" way. I know I am preaching to the choir here so I think I'll just shut up now. But, forget about being an artist until you are already a star. Art doesn't sell movie tickets, bluray discs and merch; Stars do.
     
    Si Withenshaw likes this.
  16. Being good isn't why you'll be hired or not. It's why you'll be remembered or not.
     
  17. It's nothing unexpected. The bar for musicianship is really low and has been so for several years now. Not that I think Balfe is bad, I really don't know. I don't hear anything particularly bad or terrible, it's just more of the same stuff. I like some of Zimmer's soundtracks but at this point, this style is so dominant that it has become incredibly boring, as safe a bet as you can make. The big studios don't take chances anymore, they're afraid the sheep will go pasture somewhere else. And they will, eventually. I think at some point people will get bored of leaving the theater without something to whistle on the way home.
     
  18. Well, I took the time and listend to the whole thing. Regarding the actual sound and mix of the music I don‘t think it sounds any different than other Remote Control productions. If there is something that sounds like samples it‘s because they treat their recordings like samples for all the reasons that have already been mentioned here.

    The music is what I expected from a Mission Impossible movie. The scores have never been highly sophisticated and/or original (for the movies, not talking about the actual TV series), always just underscore action and suspense music. It does it job and works with the movie. Yeah, it has a lot of Zimmer in it, it could be an expansion version of Zimmer‘s „The Dark Knight Rises“ and „Inception“, but I guess Lorne worked on these scores too so that argument is out of the room. Let‘s just say it sounds like RC.

    You want a real Mission Impossible score? Get Lalo Schifrin back as long as he is still around, but that‘s not gonna happen.
     

Share This Page