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I disovered a little bit of the Thomas Newman thing.

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks & Talk' started by Eric Watkins, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. #1 Eric Watkins, Jul 10, 2017
    So I'm not the most learned of us for sure, but I do work, a lot. I recently scored a few shorts for a local, annual film festival. For one of them, the director used By Any Other Name as a reference track (as well as 5 other seemingly unrelated tracks) for me to get ideas of what they wanted. Loving that piece myself, I thought I'd dig in. This may seem overly simple to many, but it was a bit of an eye opener to me.

    That piece always felt weird, meter-wise to me and I didn't really spend time with that aspect. I wanted to know more about what made it tick harmonically. Here's what I figured out, in the terms that make sense to me. I'm sure others here have a much better, broader understanding.

    First off; Modes. My simple understanding as a keyboard player, is to start on an alternative note on the scale other than the root and play through. Example: C major scale but starting on D = dorian. If I'm wrong please correct me.

    My experience with using modes is very limited but I have experimented with them. My main problem with feeling comfortable within them, is how to root the riff and how to progress from where ever I start. I mean, since it has a rather unrooted sound to play in a mode, where do you go from there? I'll leave this here for now.

    Secondly; I just took a quick inventory of what notes he was playing. Like I literally lay my hands on all the keys I know he plays in the riff, take a tally of what's there, and I get G minor (Bb major?). But then his left hand chords are basically C, Eb, and F. So my little brain works like; We are in the key of Gm but the anchors in the left hand are sort of based around a Cm chord progression.

    So anyway, as I took off and started to develop my piece for this short film, I "borrowed" that idea, and I added a Dm chord into the progression. To me, this was a big deal, playing a modal piece ( I mean technically Gm is a mode of Bb right?) and then using these bass movements that are rooted around what would be the 4th of the Gm scale or actually Cm.

    Does this make sense? It does to me in a disjointed way. I mean, it's not like I feel super confident about what is going on, but as my piece took shape, I sure as HELL nailed a tone similar to him, which the director then loved.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?
     
    Mike Worth likes this.
  2. #2 Doug Gibson, Jul 11, 2017
    Hmm..... not really sure what you are asking. If you are getting lots of work, and the directors are loving what you are writing.... keep doing your thing.
    No need to ask if you are doing it right.

    If you are asking about the broad topics of modes, then I can only offer that two comments of yours strike me as "red flag" (as in red banned)

    Not wrong, again if it works for you .... then cool.

    1st.) I don't really do the whole this mode is C but degree XYZ thing. I used t,o as I was taught that way, but now it is mostly useless to me.
    I know them individually, and thankfully well enough I don't really have to ponder them much anymore.

    2.) The notion a mode has an "un-rooted" sound. Sing them. That is really what you need to do. Sing each mode and you (or should say I always did) will
    find certain resting spots, and others with "pull". A gravity, or rest.

    If I had to do it over, I would focus much more on where the whole-half steps (tone/semitones) are than wether it relates to another mode.

    Not sure if this is what you are asking. I am sure others can offer more advice
     
  3. #3 Mike Verta, Jul 11, 2017
    I'm guessing you've not taken Theory 1....
     
    Eric Watkins likes this.
  4. #4 Eric Watkins, Jul 12, 2017
    I know enough to be dangerous. Self taught as needed (obviously I need more) for decades. I mean, basic stuff, scales, chords, circle of fifths, etc etc. The stuff my piano teacher and band teachers tried to drive home when I was 11 years old but not really interested at that time. I still feel that every time I get a small grasp on stuff like this, it feels like peaking behind the curtain of a secret world or foreign language. I didn't have much of a question I guess, but if someone wants to redefine how I think about modes, I guess that would be great. As Doug suggested, I should probably just work hard to get them all under my fingers and sing them (I don't sing to the benefit of us all). Just seems daunting, but I do indeed have a break in the writing schedule coming up and I can think of worse ways to spend my time. Thanks guys!
     
    Gharun Lacy likes this.
  5. #5 Alexander Schiborr, Jul 12, 2017
    Not able to answer everything here complet, but you should get a feel for the "Color" of the Mode. To get a better idea regarding the color of the mode, you could try playing not Dorian from the D, but from the C. First you see better what notes are different, and second you can distinguish better the difference in color between a c ionian and c dorian. It takes a while. Third: Every Mode has its important notes and less important notes. Lets put it this way in an example: C Lydian is practically the same like C ionian BUT with one exception which is major in difference in output of the color and mood: the augmented fourth. So off course when writing for C lydian you should better keep an eye on the lydian augmented fourth note and to chose chords or chord progressions which "feature" the augmented 4th note. But first I would say: Go and play around the scales to get a feeling of the sound. It is not important to know the names of the scales: The important thing is to know the color and what mood it creates (in terms of traditional listeners western music experience)
     
    Gharun Lacy, Jamie Niebergall and Eric Watkins like this.
  6. #6 Hugh Harrer, Jul 13, 2017
    Great stuff here.
    Writing in different modalities can really open up your pallet.
    And I know what you mean about the "in-rooted" sound. That's the beauty of it. More inherent ambiguity.

    And as Alex says, play them from C as a learning tool.
    Like Phrygian, a fave of mine, Flat 2, 3, 6, and 7. So a natural minor with a funky flat 2.
    As Doug said, singing them is great training, like singing intervals.

    Actually purposely truing to write in a mode can open up new vistas.

    Hugh

    PS If I've got the right guy, Eric, you do some fantastic work.
    Didn't you post some of the shorts you scored for that film festival in years past on another forum? Loved them.
    If that's not you I'm sure your work is wonderful, too.
     
    Eric Watkins likes this.
  7. #7 Doug Gibson, Jul 13, 2017
    Well, what you can do (aside from buying Mike's Music Theory vid which I am sure is excellent, but I have not seen)
    is sing each mode off of the same starting pitch. Say.... D for example. So sing all 7 from D.

    For the "color" aspect Alexander describes I would order them like this

    Lydian
    Ionian
    Mixolydian
    Dorian
    Aeolian
    Phrygian
    Locrian

    By starting with lydian you are simply lowering one note with each mode you go through, and you go counter clock wise on the circle of 5ths.
    Which means descriptively each mode that gets a little "darker" is get flats added.

    Then you can go the other direction, and clock wise with things getting brighter.

    I am leaving out anything to do with harmonizing as these things can become fairly long topics. I think in total if you really knew 12 modes
    you are pretty much good to go. There are theoretically over 2,000 but really it is all a re-order of half and whole steps.

    The others I think that are commonly used that are outside of these 7 would be

    Pentatonic (maj,min)
    Harmonic Minor
    Melodic Minor
    Whole tone
    Octatonic (both versions)


    It also can not be over stated that improvising with a mode can be one of the best ways to get your own fingerprints on them.
     
    Gharun Lacy likes this.
  8. #8 Anders Dahnielson, Jul 13, 2017
    Leaving these here as it might be of interest for someone looking for a Thomas Newman thread:



     
  9. #9 Eric Watkins, Jul 13, 2017
    In my haste, I didn't notice you said "Theory 1", as in your course. I thought you were just saying theory in general. Gotcha. I plan on it. I've got a nice break coming from writing. Should be a great opportunity to stretch into some of this. I will definitely be picking up a few more courses of yours. Thanks!
     
  10. #10 Eric Watkins, Jul 13, 2017
    Yes, I like this idea very much, thank you!
     
  11. #11 Eric Watkins, Jul 13, 2017
    It is indeed the same me, thanks so much. When I really put in the hours (a LOT of hours) I can usually come up with something passable. I appreciate the kind words very much.
     
  12. #12 Eric Watkins, Jul 13, 2017
    Also very helpful, thank you!
     
  13. #13 Sergio Dijs, Sep 5, 2017
    Yes, this is a very good advice. I'm familiar with modes being a jazz pianist at heart, and the concept of "Dorian is the C scale playing from D to D" always seemed wrong to me. A mode is a major or minor scale with some alteration/s. Dorian is a minor scale with a 'natural' 6th (#6), lydian is a major scale with a #4th, mixolydian is a major scale with a flat 7th, and so on. For me, seeing the modes like this is much more intuitive tan the other way. Modes are just flavors of a scale, and all scales are modes (the major/minor scales/modes, the church modes, the pentatonic scale/mode, the octatonic scale/mode, whole-tone, etc).

    Looking at the modes this way is how you can easily spot a mixolydian fanfare at the beginning of so many 80s soundtrackstracks, and how can you naturally hear the lidian in countless films as well... Even the octatonic mode 'sings' to the ear very clearly once you get used to it.

    A good exercise that I saw Bruce Adolphe does on his lectures at the Chamber Music Society is: take a very well-known nursery rhyme or song and change its mode. Try playing Old McDonald or Happy Brithday in lidian or locrian mode and you will discover the feeling that each mode conveys. Bruce Adolphe does that in order to explain the modes to the 'common man', but still it's good as an exercise for oneself (and amusing, actually).
     
  14. #14 Sam Miller, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
    I see that someone's already posted Rick Beato's videos. The key point I took away from there, and something that instantly makes me think of Newman, is playing a Major chord on the bottom an putting the minor third above it. In the video it's C Major with an Eb above.

    Regarding modes, I've just started going over these with my tutor. There were a couple of things that helped me anchor myself to playing in that mode. The first is pedal tones - simple and effective, but can get a bit monotonous after a while. The second is knowing what differentiates that mode from it's parent (minor or Major, depending on the mode) and playing with that - does it have a leading tone, does it have a dominant, etc.

    In the end, the exercises we did weren't so much about composing in modes as modulating in and out of them. The idea being that you increase your harmonic palette by borrowing chords from the relative mode. Some of the examples in the below videos demonstrate that technique.
     
  15. #15 Doug Gibson, Sep 18, 2017
    Hey, this might be a random stretch...... it says on your profile Canberra, Australia......

    Is your tutor by any chance Ken Lampl ? I knew him from NYC. I know he went out there to become Dean at a music university there.
    I have no idea how big Canberra is, but if you can look him up. He was a former student of John Williams at Tanglewood. Good composer and guy.
     
  16. #16 Doug Gibson, Sep 18, 2017
    Come on man..... Locrian.
     
  17. #17 Sam Miller, Sep 18, 2017
    Thanks for the catch. Let's call that my brain fart for the day. Hopefully it's the only one...
     
  18. #18 Sam Miller, Sep 18, 2017
    Don't know Ken, but can see that he's the head of the ANU School of Music. Canberra is tiny, you'd drive across it less than an hour!
     
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