The Name Game Pro Tip:
  1. Didja accidentally blow through the whole, "We're using our real names" thing on registration? No problem, just send me (Mike) a Conversation message and I'll get you sorted, by which I mean hammered-into-obedient-line because I'm SO about having a lot of individuality-destroying, oppressive shit all over my forum.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. You're only as good as the harshest criticism you're willing to hear.
    Dismiss Notice

Star Sword

Discussion in 'Critique & Feedback' started by Louis Calabrese, Sep 20, 2017.

Page 5 of 8
  1. #81 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 11, 2017
    Btw. Doug did you got my eMail? I did shoot one a while ago.
     
  2. #82 Doug Gibson, Nov 11, 2017
    What ? No, I don't recall that at all. Did you email from my website ? Gee..... Sorry about that. Just hassle me if that happens.

    douglasgibsoncomposer@gmail.com reaches me directly. My apologies, I just don't recall ever seeing it (other than the one from Vi-Control)
     
  3. #83 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 11, 2017
    Hi Louis,

    Yes, I would say straight 2,4,6 things are good in establishing ideas which the audience can easily connect to. That doesn´t mean that you can later on bang round the clock, so to speak do some fore fancy stuff and shorten bars, or lengthen bars or go even other more complex ways, but first make it simple. The question is: Do you intend to aim a connection with a larger audience? then better make sure to make it at least in the first run "simple" and straight. Not to mentioned Williams again. But why he is it that he is having success that both kind of audiences like him? The simple audience likes him because of his melodic and easy comprehendable motifs and the more lets progressive audience coming from concert music likes him as well because he goes with his themes also other more complex ways in harmony and development. But this is the key..you need give your idea a bit time to make sure that it is clear in its message, otherwise you will have to stick to a very special kind of audience. Again: Simple does not have to be generic or boring.
    @Doug Gibson
    Doug has a lot of knowledge in throwing in examples for what I say. I am pretty sure he can give examples also apart from filmmusic, also from classic or romantic era music. Even if I think of Mahlers Symphonies, I love them.. and they are complex (at least for me) but there is always a line which carries you throughout the piece.
    But I want not to confuse you Louis: It is needs time and practise and you have to be patient. Don´t take my comments as a demotivation. I can feel with you because I am in the same boat with that stuff.

    And @Mike Verta

    If you have a bit time. I would appreciate to have opinion from you to this things here with louis and his tracks. the grand master Jedi of the forum has to speak! :D
     
  4. #84 Mike Verta, Nov 11, 2017
    Lord...!

    Okay, my thought is that we could fill a tome with discussion on this stuff, but the essential skill here is being able to lead a listener first through a simple and relate-able progression. But to do that, we must first have a vocabulary of progressions to use, even if it's a limited vocabulary. As was suggested earlier, write a song using a I-IV-V progression (C, F, G) and following the form AABA. Honestly , if we can't do this effectively and in a compelling way - this, the simplest of things - then it's over before it begins. The complexities of "orchestral" will spin us completely out into nowhere if we can't do this. So I'd say stop trying to do that, reset, find your patience, and go back to the basics. The rest of your musical life is built on that.
     
    Luke Johnson likes this.
  5. #85 Louis Calabrese, Nov 20, 2017
    I hope everyone is well, thanks for the input! I've had a lot of stuff going on!

    @Alexander Schiborr
    @Doug Gibson

    I took that theme of mine you both gave examples on and re-wrote it into a piece I feel is more like what you are saying. I tried to play around with it for a bit before setting in on something to submit. What do you think?

     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  6. #86 Sylvain Provenzano, Nov 20, 2017
    I would do a rallentando for the three last notes because it's a bit to abrupt. The bridge at 55" sounds weird to me (but maybe not if orchestrated). Otherwise, it seems to be a solid AABA form.
     
  7. #87 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 20, 2017
    Hey Louis,

    Bam, man in your fucking face, man. Graet! Thanks for sharing, and yes, that is much much better in my opinion. And I would say that this is the first piece where I feel to have a connection with you. There are some minor things but I won´t hack on that. Please do me the favor and build on this approach also for your other tracks by now.

    PS: I really like the piece here. and that has a lot to do that you don´t alienate me.
     
    Louis Calabrese likes this.
  8. #88 Louis Calabrese, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
    L

    Lol, thank you and I think I see a lot of what your saying, esp about form. For this piece I was going to repeat A and B again to make AABABA for a full piece and orchestrate it as a Christmas piece.

    AABA is the most basic obvious one but I find sometimes I write AABB style - that is an accepted style right? Would it make any difference if it was AAABBB (example below) or does that go on too long between themes? I could re-arrange or shorten, but I feel that i couldn't build each theme with only 16 bars and needed 24.



    Going forward I'll stick with below. Parentheses would be to make it longer.
    AABA(BA)
    AABB(AABB)
    ABACABA(repeat entire)
     
  9. #89 Louis Calabrese, Nov 20, 2017
    Thank you for your input! I need a better bridge between melodies at 55s. I needed to go from D to C and went through G but it's not right. Slowing down the end is a good idea as well, I'll def do that.
     
  10. #90 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 20, 2017
    AABA is just a general very basic guideline. There is nothing wrong in trying out different versions of it and what you do is up a bit to your own taste for arrangement and what kind of material you present to the audience. Don´t get stuck too much on the subject if you should do an AABA or AABBA, or AABBABA or something else. Concentrate more on writing a good A Section and compelling B Section. This is of the most importance. How about orchestrating your piano example for strings? Hmm? Just as an idea.;)
    How about trying to do different developed version of your A Section? How about trying to use modal interchanges with some subsitute chords to the say the same melody with a different mood. You should spent a little more time with one of your pieces. Just my suggestion.
     
  11. #91 Louis Calabrese, Nov 20, 2017
    I will focus on orchestrating this piano piece and I've had some ideas on what to do - I posted the other piece just to reference my thought on form.
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  12. #92 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 20, 2017
    It is fine and up to you. I am just saying.:D
     
  13. #93 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 21, 2017
    Is there a piano version available of that piece?
     
  14. #94 Louis Calabrese, Nov 22, 2017
    I wrote the A and B themes on the piano but didn't write it is as a full piano piece. The B section is piano in the orchestral.

    As you suggested though, stick on one topic for me. You like the Cheerful Snowfall piano piece and follow it so it would be a good candidate to look at my orchestration ability. I have it mostly together but want to tweak it and will post soon.
     
  15. #95 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 23, 2017
    30 min voice recording for you:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/91rn1vpibkljcrn/louis_3.mp3?dl=0
     
  16. #96 Louis Calabrese, Nov 26, 2017
    Here is an updated Piano Version based off some comments


    Here is my first pass at orchestrating the piece as clearly as winter-y idea. I tried to closely match the piano piece
     
  17. #97 Louis Calabrese, Nov 26, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Thank you again for the detailed and specific analysis of work! You spend a lot of time and it's greatly appreciated. I will take what you said about structural issues with this piece and see what I can do to fix it. Based on your comments about my melody components themselves might need some decent reworking.

    From a production standpoint, I would very much like to improve my mock up ability as well. I have a lot of the sample libraries/effects that are recommended from those on VI-C and Mike. I do have issues mixing and mastering my work, and although I try to compare to reference tracks there's some combination of my ear + room acoustics hindering me a bit. Any feedback on that topic would also be appreciated.
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  18. #98 Alexander Schiborr, Nov 27, 2017
    Here are my comments.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/fpam1ir4kgwtcne/louis 4.mp3?dl=0
     
  19. #99 Matthias Calis, Nov 27, 2017
    Couple of quick remarks (I didn't listen to all the feedback Alexander gave you, just the first 6 and a half minutes or so, so I might give some redundant feedback).

    I like the piano sketch quite a bit. The core idea held my interest to listen to the sketch in its entirety without pausing. Well done!

    The orchestrated version however doesn't feel as strong to me. Some quick notes:

    1. Feels like you're going in with too much stuff at the start. I can hear violins, flute doing the melody, sleighbell doing a little rhyhtm and probably violas or celli doing chords underneath. Your piano idea felt more subtle to me, I don't think you need to start out with the melody doubled. Just the melody on flutes with violin chords sustaining underneath and the sleighbell used as a highlighting effect for the important/marked notes, would, in my view, suffice.
    2. Chords are very on the beat. That's not problematic by itself, but I can hear several spot where the bass/chords could do a little countermovement. It feels a bit static and "plodding" in my view, because (almost) all the chords are on the 1 and the 3. Because most of the chords are on the beat, most of them are also the same length, so that could be why I feel like there's a lack of movement. Everything is moving exactly along with the melody.
    3. Timpani loses its weight and impact after a while because you keep using it from 0:40 all the way to the end and it too is moving precisly on the beat.
    4. I'm not entirely sure if the sleighbell needs to be doing that rhythm on top all the time. I don't really have anything against it, because I don't really notice it. Whether or not me not noticing it after a while is a problem or not is up to you to decide.
    5. As a brief tip: I like to think of sleighbells and timpani more as effects that help me highlight the notes that I want to mark/stand out (especially sleighbell). You don't have to use them that way, but I think they would be more effective when used that way. See #3 and #4.

    I think it's fair to say you've already progressed quite a bit since your first post in this thread. Keep at it, and keep in mind that all I'm saying is just one guy's opinion :)

    Cheers!
     
    Alexander Schiborr likes this.
  20. #100 Aaron Venture, Nov 27, 2017
    Great progress. I do feel your orchestrated piece is too rigid. You start with soaring violins a no lower backbone for them to fall on (pardon my non-technical vocabulary). That type of orchestration sounds more like a B section of some melody, as a way to drop out the lower end in order for it to have more impact once it comes back.

    Just off the bat (I haven't tried it), I would start with a slower tempo and sleigh bells just ringing for two bars. This will tell everyone what kind of piece it is, it sets the mood and eases the listener into the rhythm. I would then have a solo violin or a quiet violin section pass over the melody, with perhaps a harp or a viola/cello pizz playing the chords.

    I think it's a wonderful piece and you're not doing it justice by having it locked strictly it tempo. It could very much use a lot Rubato, especially in that first section, and taking a breath towards the end of it. Just play the melody in by feeling, without the click. Then play the sleigh bells on top. If the sleigh bells are a loop, record it, cut the hits one by one and drop them into Kontakt or any other sampler you have. Feel free to have them slow down or speed up depending on how you play the melody, but at the moment I'm thinking of having them slow down towards the end of that first melody passage, before the horns come in. With a more intimate orchestration and rubato, the melody with horns will have much, much greater impact without adding any more stuff to it than there is right now.

    Same for the choir. I would let it breathe a bit towards the end of the choir part. I also can't help but hear an additional bar after that choir part because of the way you wrote it, with a modulation to G right after (it's just me, might just be the current zone I'm in, but I feel like it would add more to the oncoming part. Like this (disregard the bar numbers, these are unrelated to your piece):





    upload_2017-11-27_14-6-58.png
     
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 5 of 8

Share This Page